I conceed.

[Kirkland Laing]

OK how do you get jobs to come to you? You give the companies some breaks. I agree that the BIG companies get the big breaks and sometimes it's uncalled for, I didn't like the bail out of Bear Stearns anymore than you.

Bush doesn't make the Fed cut rates the Fed Chair controls what happens in there he is not controlled by the President, I mean the President can replace him but if that was the case Greenspan wouldn't have lasted as long as he did.


Supply side economics is simple, you let the people have more money to spend and make up the difference via sales tax and corporate taxes as business would increase if spending increased but the problem is that sometimes people don't want to spend any money. You don't cut taxes during a war that's a big no-no...I will agree on that. Make an arguement for big tax hikes...should we have to pay this government more for what they have done I'd rather they do more with less instead of less with more.

Kirkland please....PLEASE come vote for Obama I am sure his policies are just going to blow our fucking minds. We've already had an inexperienced elitist prick running the show for 8 years and now you want another one but from another party and you think he's going to be different, how cute.

The government subdidies have zero to do with job creation. Multinationals have been downsizing and outsourcing and offshoring their taxable liabilities for decades now and they still get their subsidies.

Bush does control the Fed. Alan Greenspan's top priority under the Clinton admin. was to end the deficits and balance the budget and develop a surplus to pay for future increases in Medicare/SS, because that was Clinton's priorities. When Bush took over Greenspan suddenly saw the surplus as dangerous and something that could lead to socialism and his top priority was giving it and much more away in tax breaks to the top 1% of earners, because that was Bush's proority. That's hoe Greenspan lasted as long as he did. Fe dchairs throughout history are endlessly on the record as doing the president's bidding :

White House officials have told us that President Bush intervened forcibly to convince an initially reluctant Federal Reserve to reduce interest rates. "There were some telephone calls from the White House to the Fed in which some very crude language was used."

Swoop, January 28th-February 3rd report


I'll deal with tax cuts and the elitist Obama when I have time later.

[El Kabong]

Swoop doesn't even list it's writers...and yet somehow they are a legitimate source of information


Have fun trying to explain away Obama's socialist political beliefs...he's a radical John Kerry who is better at reading.

[Trainer Monkey]

Try posting me again without a miner,you generally need power for that
Aint gonna have alot of that without miners

[El Kabong]

Well I understand and respect your opinion however no one made those people mine. Those guys knew what the dangers were and they went anyway, they went inspite of maybe not being paid a sufficient ammount as well.

They had a choice in life and they chose mining. Mines are a necesity but it doesn't change the fact that those guys chose that as a career, no one forced them to do that for a living.

Nuclear is the way to go...and FYI we have a nuclear power plant just outside Raleigh so, sure thing bro I'll post after they shut down those plants.


And if they are THAT important why can't they get more pay and get better safety measures

[Trainer Monkey]

Well I understand and respect your opinion however no one made those people mine. Those guys knew what the dangers were and they went anyway, they went inspite of maybe not being paid a sufficient ammount as well.

They had a choice in life and they chose mining. Mines are a necesity but it doesn't change the fact that those guys chose that as a career, no one forced them to do that for a living.

Nuclear is the way to go...and FYI we have a nuclear power plant just outside Raleigh so, sure thing bro I'll post after they shut down those plants.


And if they are THAT important why can't they get more pay and get better safety measures

They should,it just doesnt happen
And by the way Uranium,which runs your Nuke plant is mined,as is most of the salt you put on your food

[El Kabong]

So we should all become communist miners Is that Obama's plan for changing America


Well in knowing all this why don't you organize a strike or something to create safer mines and mining practices?

[Trainer Monkey]

So we should all become communist miners Is that Obama's plan for changing America


Well in knowing all this why don't you organize a strike or something to create safer mines and mining practices?

We're allready taking steps here
But change doesnt happen overnight,Im betting Massey has better lobbyists then the Union
I mean if you can even find a union mine anymore

[Youngblood]

I spelled concede wrong. D'oh. I'm a dumbass.

I concede.

carry on...

[El Kabong]

We're allready taking steps here
But change doesnt happen overnight,Im betting Massey has better lobbyists then the Union
I mean if you can even find a union mine anymore

Go to the Department of Labor then.


Odd how we went from Hillary dropping out of the race to Bill to talking about miners(minors) hahahaha......oh Bill Clinton you've given us so much to laugh at you about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEF8LvsqYh4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRu49lTdOQA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMnxZmCSIy4

[Trainer Monkey]

We're allready taking steps here
But change doesnt happen overnight,Im betting Massey has better lobbyists then the Union
I mean if you can even find a union mine anymore

Go to the Department of Labor then.


Odd how we went from Hillary dropping out of the race to Bill to talking about miners(minors) hahahaha......oh Bill Clinton you've given us so much to laugh at you about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEF8LvsqYh4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRu49lTdOQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMnxZmCSIy4

You mean like all the good they did in 73 when strikebreakers opened up on the union line in Kentucky with a machine gun?
And Lord knows the unions are so much more protected now,by which I mean a lot less
Learn your history son

[El Kabong]

...TM are you a miner or do you come from a family of miners or something?


I don't like Unions anyway

[Kirkland Laing]

Swoop doesn't even list it's writers...and yet somehow they are a legitimate source of information


Have fun trying to explain away Obama's socialist political beliefs...he's a radical John Kerry who is better at reading.

That Fed chairs are politically beholden to presidents to keep their job is endlessly well-documented throughout history, not least on the Nixon tapes when Nixon tells Arthur Burns to cut interest rates before the 1972 election.

I notice again no attempt by you to deal with facts and evidence and answer my questions. Here are some more inconvenient facts about supply-side economics -- tax cuts do not pay for themselves in any way, shape or form. Let's look at the Bush tax cuts for the best possible example of disastrous tax cuts which failed to pay for themselves :

Here's how tax revenues have gone over the past few decades, so that we can compare the wonderful revenue success under Bush 43. In 1950 we had $45 billion in revenues, which jumped to $91 by 1960. The link only shows from 1962, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

From $91 billion in 1960, we jumped to $192 billion in 1970.

In 1980, revenues jumped to a massive $517 billion, although the extra revenue was inflation caused by two disastrous external oil price spikes beyond our control.

By 1990, revenues had jumped from $517 to $1032 billion, again doubling.

In 2000, revenues had doubled again from $1032 to $2025.

Bush's 2001 tax cut was backdated to Q1 2001, so the cut was in place from the first day of fiscal year 2001. So by 2005, we should have been looking at revenues in the region of $3000 billion plus the extra revenue growth from the tax cuts, right?

Here are the numbers :

2000 : $2025

Bush tax cut

2001 : $1991

2002 : $1853

Bush tax cut

2003 : $1782

2004 : $1880

2005 : $2153


Here are the numbers for income tax, the tax that is supposed to grow the most in response to a cut :

1960 : $41.7 billion

1970 : $90.4

1980 : $244.1

1990 : $466.9

2000 : $1004.5

Bush tax cut

2001 : $994.3

2002 : $858.3

Bush tax cut

2003 : $793.7

2004 : $809.0

2005 : $927.2

2006 : $1043.9


http://www.cbo.gov/budget/historical.pdf

So from a position of surplus eight years ago Bush has now created an ongoing trillion dollar a year revenue shortfall. Guess which section of American society are going to see their taxes rocket in a couple of years to cover this? Not the top-earning 1%, that's for sure.


And how is Obama an elitist? He's got an immigrant father and had to work his way through college. He got where he is because he's got a brilliant brain. John McCain has been a Senator most of his life and his entire career is down to marrying an heiress to the Coors brewing empire. Now McCain represents the interests of guys like the Coors family and the other richest families in America while Obama represents the interests of working Americans. Which one is elitist?

[El Kabong]

So John McCain is an elitist? John McCain a military man from a military family marries into money and he's an elite now? John McCain's son is also in the service....but nevermind that John McCain is elite.

John McCain is more of you average everyday guy than Barack or Hillary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMkQ6OPi3RU


....so apparently I'm "bitter" and have been "beaten down" by the government. And Barack wants to make progress without anyone knowing or seeing it....like some sort of ninja politician.


If all you say is true then why even bother worrying about it KL it's like America is getting ready to be sucked into a black hole so there is nothing anyone could possibly do.....so why not elect Pee Wee Herman as President since no one can do anything about America's problems.....oh wait I know someone who can....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZyPaivOARM


HAHAHAHA

[boozeboxer]

...TM are you a miner or do you come from a family of miners or something?


I don't like Unions anyway

Lyle, the Unions created holidays, weekends, and essentially the middle class in America. Unions have been very good to this country and have done okay despite many efforts to kill them (notably Reagan).

Unions often strike over unsafe work conditions that companies could not "afford" to implement. The bottom line is that mining companies are like most companies. Greedy. They will endanger workers gravely if it would help the bottom line. Unions were created because enough was enough. The workers were overworked (to the detriment of their safety), underpaid, and laid off at the very convenience of the employer. However people of like trades started to ban together and demand at least some of the benefits from their toils. They became a voice together, because singled out, workers were fired and unemployed or shot and killed.


Wal-mart fights unions very hard, because they know they aren't pulling their weight. They know they undercompensate their workers. They know that they are draining the US economy because the workers have to submit to government welfare. So they keep pushing anti-union propaganda, very strongly. Saying they will close up shop in any town that creates a union. And that the workers shouldn't need a union because they always have a voice in the company. Yeah. right. Not suprisingly, Wal-mart is big in pushing for welfare type subsidies, because the workers would be unable to keep working for them at shit wages without it.

I find it ironic that unions are to blame because the US cannot compete with foreign auto manufacturers and other trades and we need free trade! Yet, these are the very same people who will not allow the importation of CHEAP ethanol from Brazil. Everyone wants it both ways. They want to spout capitalism and then mercanitilism when it suits. In short we have let a greedy corporate monster, the almighty dollar manipulate a nation. (Side note--ADM will take a huge toll on the American people with its manipulation of ethanol and other energy concerns in the very near future.)

[Kirkland Laing]

When you manage to make a substantive point I'll reply.