Geez these f'ers are crazy.

[CFH]

I'm not sure I know of a legal invasion in the history of war. Almost an oxymoron. Like I said I didn't agree with invading Iraq nor do I think the invasion or rebuilding phases early on were very well thought out but we are there so why not finish it. CFH I'm afraid you don't have your finger on the pulse of the Iraqi people. Most if not every average joe Iraqi I ever spoke to was better than they were in 2003 and most don't want us to leave. The younger generation is very excited about moving forward in a western government. If it makes you feel better to be disrespectful to me b/c you some how feel I am the embodiment of the American Government then go right ahead but I'm still one soldier doing what I'm told. I hope you treat your Canadian soldier's with more respect. I worked with several in the Aruzagon valley. Brave men.

Fair enough about a legal invasion, perhaps unjustified is a better word. To me it is criminal. I'm honestly not trying to disrespect you on a personal level, you're earlier comment pissed me off and that's why I responded in the way I did, but I have nothing against you personally. We just have completely different views about what you're doing. My views on these sorts of things are far from mainstream, I understand that, I just I don't feel that it is any different from any other kind of armed killing, IMO it was not necessary and that angers me.

Regarding Canadian soldiers, I don't have a ton of respect for what they represent. Individually, I have no problems with the few I know. A friend of mine from school is an infantryman (a reservist obviously). I don't feel much different about them than I do about any other soldiers. I hope none of them get killed and I hope they don't have to kill anybody, but obviously that is unrealistic. I don't have a lot of respect for the policies/goals of the governments they represent. I wish them no personal ill, but I in no way support what they represent.

Anyways, I don't want to get embroiled in a long, drawn out argument about politics or anything like that. I try to avoid that these days. I apologize for offending you, like I said, I was just pissed off about your comment and reacted harshly. I hope you come back from Iraq safely if you go again, but I also hope you don't have to kill anyone else. I just don't agree with why your are there etc.

[Andre]

I'm not sure I know of a legal invasion in the history of war. Almost an oxymoron. Like I said I didn't agree with invading Iraq nor do I think the invasion or rebuilding phases early on were very well thought out but we are there so why not finish it. CFH I'm afraid you don't have your finger on the pulse of the Iraqi people. Most if not every average joe Iraqi I ever spoke to was better than they were in 2003 and most don't want us to leave. The younger generation is very excited about moving forward in a western government. If it makes you feel better to be disrespectful to me b/c you some how feel I am the embodiment of the American Government then go right ahead but I'm still one soldier doing what I'm told. I hope you treat your Canadian soldier's with more respect. I worked with several in the Aruzagon valley. Brave men.

Good luck come home safe.

[Trainer Monkey]

I'm not sure I know of a legal invasion in the history of war. Almost an oxymoron. Like I said I didn't agree with invading Iraq nor do I think the invasion or rebuilding phases early on were very well thought out but we are there so why not finish it. CFH I'm afraid you don't have your finger on the pulse of the Iraqi people. Most if not every average joe Iraqi I ever spoke to was better than they were in 2003 and most don't want us to leave. The younger generation is very excited about moving forward in a western government. If it makes you feel better to be disrespectful to me b/c you some how feel I am the embodiment of the American Government then go right ahead but I'm still one soldier doing what I'm told. I hope you treat your Canadian soldier's with more respect. I worked with several in the Aruzagon valley. Brave men.

The only way to "finish it" is to break it in to 3 states Shia Sunni and Kurd,and leave. All we're doing now is putting people like you in a position where all 3 put aside their differences long enough to shoot at you in unison.

[VictorCharlie]

CFH I think maybe you misunderstood my original statement. I'm not a very PC person so you will have to forgive me if I come off a little rough around the edges. I meant that as long radical islamists are volunteering and funding international terrorist orginizations my government will send me to defeat them. So I will continue to find myself on the other side of a firefight against muslims.

I have mixed feelings on whether the current type of government in Iraq can work. I was impressed with the Sunnis I worked with. They were typically well educated, hardworking, more open to western culture and government and well organized. The Shia due to 70+ years of having a boot on their neck are quite often poor and uneducated. But more importantly they are not organized. They spend just as much time with infighting as anything else. With the Sunnis now having a bigger role politcally we will just have to wait and see if the two can get along. The Kurds are really the biggest obstacle to a united Iraq. If they cannot be appeased and afforded some semblance of autonomy they will declare independence. With large swaths of both Turkey and Iran having Kurdish majorities this would instantly bring about tension and possibily military action. A resurgence of sectarian violence between Sunnia and Shia would pit a Iranian supported Shia majority against a Gulf State funded Sunni minority. We can blaim the cultural differences in Iraq and Afghanistan on the Brits though they drew the lines Anyhow I digress...regardless of why or how we ended up in Iraq, the potential for disaster with a too speedy withdrawal compared with the possibilty of a democratic non fundamentalist nation smack dab in the middle of an area that is still coming to grips with the western world seems a no brainer to me

[VictorCharlie]

I'm not sure I know of a legal invasion in the history of war. Almost an oxymoron. Like I said I didn't agree with invading Iraq nor do I think the invasion or rebuilding phases early on were very well thought out but we are there so why not finish it. CFH I'm afraid you don't have your finger on the pulse of the Iraqi people. Most if not every average joe Iraqi I ever spoke to was better than they were in 2003 and most don't want us to leave. The younger generation is very excited about moving forward in a western government. If it makes you feel better to be disrespectful to me b/c you some how feel I am the embodiment of the American Government then go right ahead but I'm still one soldier doing what I'm told. I hope you treat your Canadian soldier's with more respect. I worked with several in the Aruzagon valley. Brave men.

The only way to "finish it" is to break it in to 3 states Shia Sunni and Kurd,and leave. All we're doing now is putting people like you in a position where all 3 put aside their differences long enough to shoot at you in unison.

Of course US soldiers are still dying at an avg of 4 a week but over my last 120 days in country both Al Qaeda and Shia Militias started concentrating their attacks on Iraqi Security Forces and not us. Iraqis know we are on the way out and they have a better chance at success and making it out alive attacking Iraqis than us.

[CFH]

CFH I think maybe you misunderstood my original statement. I'm not a very PC person so you will have to forgive me if I come off a little rough around the edges. I meant that as long radical islamists are volunteering and funding international terrorist orginizations my government will send me to defeat them. So I will continue to find myself on the other side of a firefight against muslims.

I have mixed feelings on whether the current type of government in Iraq can work. I was impressed with the Sunnis I worked with. They were typically well educated, hardworking, more open to western culture and government and well organized. The Shia due to 70+ years of having a boot on their neck are quite often poor and uneducated. But more importantly they are not organized. They spend just as much time with infighting as anything else. With the Sunnis now having a bigger role politcally we will just have to wait and see if the two can get along. The Kurds are really the biggest obstacle to a united Iraq. If they cannot be appeased and afforded some semblance of autonomy they will declare independence. With large swaths of both Turkey and Iran having Kurdish majorities this would instantly bring about tension and possibily military action. A resurgence of sectarian violence between Sunnia and Shia would pit a Iranian supported Shia majority against a Gulf State funded Sunni minority. We can blaim the cultural differences in Iraq and Afghanistan on the Brits though they drew the lines Anyhow I digress...regardless of why or how we ended up in Iraq, the potential for disaster with a too speedy withdrawal compared with the possibilty of a democratic non fundamentalist nation smack dab in the middle of an area that is still coming to grips with the western world seems a no brainer to me

Hey Van,

I just want to take the opportunity to apologize again. My beef is not with you on any personal level, and it really has nothing to do with you. I am very critical of the governments of both our countries, and our "western/northern" way of life in general, and I guess for whatever reason I transferred my feelings about them to you after I read your comment. That is both juvenile and unfair for me to do. After reading your clarification, I did misunderstand what you were saying as well, but that is really no excuse for my behavior. I know my views are not mainstream, and sometimes I can be quite provocative and belligerent about them when I get heated, which is why I normally avoid these types of threads. You have as much right to your views as I do to mine, and for me to act otherwise is absurd.

I'm going to try and avoid discussing the politics etc. of the situation because we have quite different views and arguing about them over the internet serves little to no purpose. I do believe we both wish to see the same thing at the end of the day.

Anyways, all the best to you and I hope you come back to your family safely at the end of the day. Good luck.

[VictorCharlie]

No worries brother

[Kev]

I watched a great film yesterday Van Childs called the Hurt Locker, detailing the lives of a three man bomb disposal squad in Baghdad during their last 30 or so days until the next rotation.

It was a really good film I thought and showed exactly how scary and intimidating it must be to be an American soldier stationed in enemy territory.

Really good film I thought, not an action film but a gripping and tense film nonetheless.

I definitely appreciate the bravery it takes to live the life of a soldier....

[armin]

I didn't read this whole thread but someone in the beginning claimed when has christianity ever done as much evil as islam, well islam is a fairly young religion compared to judaism and christianity, and guess what those two in their early years were just as shit fuckin crazy. The crusades were basically sanctioned killings by the pope, along the way they didn't really care whom they killed often times killing the christians as well and sacking christian cities. No religion is crazier than another one, its just that at the moment loonies are more dominant in islam than in christianity, but it wasn't always like that. For fucks sake adolf hitler considered himself to be doing gods work.There are highs and lows for every civilization, islamic civilization if you want to call it that, just happens to be perhaps at a low at the moment, just like western culture/ christian civilization was at a low for several hundred years during the dark ages, during this time the middle east was rather advanced when compared to europe. I can't believe people don't see this...

[Von Milash]

Well that's because you're entirely wrong.

[armin]

Good debate tactic just tell someone they're wrong, and keep at it. Why am I entirely wrong? Crusades weren't really military campaigns by christian europe waged against muslims, jews, eastern orthodox christians and numerous other peoples? They weren't sanctioned by the pope? Crusaders were not granted forgiveness for all kinds of sins by the church if they went on a crusade? Talking of church approved torture and prosecution anyone remember the inquistions? Expeling/killing of jews from almost every european country during the medival ages, not once but several times. Christianity has just as much blood on its hands as islam, the religions themselves are not crazy they're just books/systems of belief and people do with it as they choose to do with it.

[VictorCharlie]

So I guess the real point your making is while Christianity's mainstream denominations have attempted to evolve and change to better fit the world's current moral compass and put its less than savory history behind it Islam is still an extremely violent religion. Couldn't agree more

[armin]

And I'm not going to disagree with that statement I said at the moment there are more loonies in islam than christianity. islam has a lot of its followers that are crazy fuckheads at the moment, but that doesn't make islam as a religion more evil than another religion.

[Trainer Monkey]

Ted Haggerty ran the largest church in America,constantly railed against homosexual marriage,all the while going on meth binges with his male prostitute lover.
Yeah,its the muslims that are crazy

[Kev]

Ted Haggerty ran the largest church in America,constantly railed against homosexual marriage,all the while going on meth binges with his male prostitute lover.
Yeah,its the muslims that are crazy

Again the difference is once his indiscretions were found out his congregation were shocked and horrifed and that he was immediately removed from his position.

What part of this is hard for you to understand Monkey? In Christianity and America if you break the law you get punished by the rest of your OWN people becuase what you did was wrong.

In Islam it's the GOVERNMENTS and offical Islamic LEADERS that are declaring this law.

Once again you try and prove one point only for your statement to actually demonstrate the total opposite, commit wrongdoing in a Christian Church in a democratically elected government in America and the rest of the Western World, you will be punished for your wrongdoing. Thanks' for the clarification