Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??

[ElTerribleMorales]

Taeth is right.

The emphasis should be on skill not records. Some fighters never even get the chance to fight a "star" fighter (beat a "star" you fly into the P4P without fail) simply because they are avoidable (don't make money sense).

Weight-classes fluctuate constantly. One minute a particular division is dynamite the next it's average.

Guzman is the best current example. There's no way half the current top ten would even live with him. But he can't be ranked because he doesn't have a "great" or current "star" name on his resume.

Taeth is dead wrong imo. P4P should be based on acomplishment not personal preference and subjective analysis.

Guzman I believe is a top 10 fighter for sure, does he deserve to be p4p though? I don't think so, he hasn't beaten a marquee fighter yet, and he's had chances to put always finds a way to pull out of the fight.

Plus, and this is important, skills are only ONE part of a fighter assessment. Many better boxers have lost to 'inferior' fighters by being outworked, beaten up, outhustled, knocked out etc.

Just by being skilled doesn't mean you will win all your fights.

Christian Mijares anybody?

So a guy with obvious skill/talent that operates in a weaker division, or can not get the top names in his division, gets overlooked P4P by a tough fighter in a strong divison.

Carl Froch should have more claims of being P4P than Guzman because he beat a "star" in Taylor, and backed it up with a win over a possible "star" in Dirrell?

difference is that Guzman has never looked like he was gonna lose, where Froch was getting schooled for the first 9 rounds against Taylor, and flat out got a home town decision against Dirrell, another fight were he was horribly outboxed, same way you had Haye beating Valuev you should have had Dirrell beating Froch, it was the same fight only difference was in weight class

[Kev]

Taeth is right.

The emphasis should be on skill not records. Some fighters never even get the chance to fight a "star" fighter (beat a "star" you fly into the P4P without fail) simply because they are avoidable (don't make money sense).

Weight-classes fluctuate constantly. One minute a particular division is dynamite the next it's average.

Guzman is the best current example. There's no way half the current top ten would even live with him. But he can't be ranked because he doesn't have a "great" or current "star" name on his resume.

Taeth is dead wrong imo. P4P should be based on acomplishment not personal preference and subjective analysis.

Guzman I believe is a top 10 fighter for sure, does he deserve to be p4p though? I don't think so, he hasn't beaten a marquee fighter yet, and he's had chances to put always finds a way to pull out of the fight.

Plus, and this is important, skills are only ONE part of a fighter assessment. Many better boxers have lost to 'inferior' fighters by being outworked, beaten up, outhustled, knocked out etc.

Just by being skilled doesn't mean you will win all your fights.

Christian Mijares anybody?

So a guy with obvious skill/talent that operates in a weaker division, or can not get the top names in his division, gets overlooked P4P by a tough fighter in a strong divison.

Carl Froch should have more claims of being P4P than Guzman because he beat a "star" in Taylor, and backed it up with a win over a possible "star" in Dirrell?

Well actually it would be you guys who might llabel Dirrell a possible 'star' not me. I go on acomplishments and Dirrell hasn't acomplished a whole lot so that win doesn't catapualt Froch into the p4p for me.

But I generally agree with that premise though. Froch has wins over Taylor, Pascal (now a lightheavyweight champ) and Dirrell. Furthermore he's competing in the Super Six and is committed to fighting the best. He's won all his fights and if he beats Kessler then absolutely he deserves consideration for p4p status whether I think there are other fighters who could beat him or not.

Now back to your 'mythical' poor fighter in a weak division who gets overlooked hypothesis?

How many of these fighters actually exist? Can you name us some?

The fighters who operate in weak divisions, take no risks and choose to stay in their safe waters rather than move up and try and make a name, why do they deserve p4p status exactly?

Did Chris John really deserve to be hailed as a great following his 'win' over Marquez when he followed it up with nothing, and refused to leave Indonesia? Now he's finally gone stateside and struggled to barely get past Rocky Jurez, I'd say the lack of hype surrounding him was entirely justified?

What about Calderon? A very talented guy in the tiniest division, he finally earned his respect, and a top 10 p4p spot with the Ring by MOVING UP, taking a risk and beating the champ.

That Guzman is not in the top 10 p4p is entirely his own doing. He has a history of pulling out of the big fights and should in no way be rewarded with a p4p spot for costing Nate Campbell half a million dollars by refusing to fight him with less than 24 hours notice. I think Guzman is a great fighter but seriously fuck him, Carl Froch deserves to be places ahead of him, not because of his skills, but because he actually fights his fights, takes on the best and gets the wins.

Your hypothetical defence for mythical hard done by fighters is just a straw man argument.

[ElTerribleMorales]

Taeth is dead wrong imo. P4P should be based on acomplishment not personal preference and subjective analysis.

Guzman I believe is a top 10 fighter for sure, does he deserve to be p4p though? I don't think so, he hasn't beaten a marquee fighter yet, and he's had chances to put always finds a way to pull out of the fight.

Plus, and this is important, skills are only ONE part of a fighter assessment. Many better boxers have lost to 'inferior' fighters by being outworked, beaten up, outhustled, knocked out etc.

Just by being skilled doesn't mean you will win all your fights.

Christian Mijares anybody?

So a guy with obvious skill/talent that operates in a weaker division, or can not get the top names in his division, gets overlooked P4P by a tough fighter in a strong divison.

Carl Froch should have more claims of being P4P than Guzman because he beat a "star" in Taylor, and backed it up with a win over a possible "star" in Dirrell?

Well actually it would you guys who might llabel Dirrell a possible 'star' not me. I go on acomplishments and Dirrell hasn't acomplished a whole lot so that win doesn't catapualt Froch into the p4p for me.

But I generally agree with that premise though. Froch has wins over Taylor, Pascal (now a lightheavyweight champ) and Dirrell. Furthermore he's competing in the Super Six and is committed to fighting the best. He's won all his fights and if he beats Kessler then absolutely he deserves consideration for p4p status whether I think there are other fighters who could beat him or not.

Now back to your 'mythical' poor fighter in a weak division who gets overlooked hypothesis?

How many of these fighters actually exist? Can you name us some?

The fighters who operate in weak divisions, take no risks and choose to say in their safe waters rather than move up and try and make a name, why do they deserve p4p status exactly?

Did Chris John really deserve to be hailed as a great following his 'win' over Marquez when he followed it up with nothing, and refused to leave Indonesia? Now he's finally gone stateside and struggled to barely get past Rocky Jurez, I'd say the lack of hype surrounding him was entirely justified?

What about Calderon? A very talented guy in the tiniest division, he finally earned his respect, and a top 10 p4p spot with the Ring by MOVING UP, taking a risk and beating the champ.

That Guzman is not in the top 10 p4p is entirely his own doing. He has a history of pulling out of the big fights and should in no way be rewarded with a p4p spot for costing Nate Campbell half a million dollars by refusing to fight him with less than 24 hours notice. I think Guzman is a great fighter but seriously fuck him, Carl Froch deserves to be places ahead of him, not because of his skills, but because he actually fights his fights, takes on the best and gets the wins.

Your hypothetical defence for mythical hard done by fighters is just a straw man argument.

couldn't get much weaker than 106 and Calderon managed to get on most people's p4p lists when he was dominating the division, so Fensters theory can go out the window

[Fenster]

Taeth is dead wrong imo. P4P should be based on acomplishment not personal preference and subjective analysis.

Guzman I believe is a top 10 fighter for sure, does he deserve to be p4p though? I don't think so, he hasn't beaten a marquee fighter yet, and he's had chances to put always finds a way to pull out of the fight.

Plus, and this is important, skills are only ONE part of a fighter assessment. Many better boxers have lost to 'inferior' fighters by being outworked, beaten up, outhustled, knocked out etc.

Just by being skilled doesn't mean you will win all your fights.

Christian Mijares anybody?

So a guy with obvious skill/talent that operates in a weaker division, or can not get the top names in his division, gets overlooked P4P by a tough fighter in a strong divison.

Carl Froch should have more claims of being P4P than Guzman because he beat a "star" in Taylor, and backed it up with a win over a possible "star" in Dirrell?

difference is that Guzman has never looked like he was gonna lose, where Froch was getting schooled for the first 9 rounds against Taylor, and flat out got a home town decision against Dirrell, another fight were he was horribly outboxed, same way you had Haye beating Valuev you should have had Dirrell beating Froch, it was the same fight only difference was in weight class

Right.. but Froch has a better record than Guzman, right? He has beat a "star." He is unbeaten.

So judging P4P by resumes Froch would beat Guzman?

What idiot what back Froch to beat Guzman in a P4P fight?

[Kev]

So a guy with obvious skill/talent that operates in a weaker division, or can not get the top names in his division, gets overlooked P4P by a tough fighter in a strong divison.

Carl Froch should have more claims of being P4P than Guzman because he beat a "star" in Taylor, and backed it up with a win over a possible "star" in Dirrell?

Well actually it would you guys who might llabel Dirrell a possible 'star' not me. I go on acomplishments and Dirrell hasn't acomplished a whole lot so that win doesn't catapualt Froch into the p4p for me.

But I generally agree with that premise though. Froch has wins over Taylor, Pascal (now a lightheavyweight champ) and Dirrell. Furthermore he's competing in the Super Six and is committed to fighting the best. He's won all his fights and if he beats Kessler then absolutely he deserves consideration for p4p status whether I think there are other fighters who could beat him or not.

Now back to your 'mythical' poor fighter in a weak division who gets overlooked hypothesis?

How many of these fighters actually exist? Can you name us some?

The fighters who operate in weak divisions, take no risks and choose to say in their safe waters rather than move up and try and make a name, why do they deserve p4p status exactly?

Did Chris John really deserve to be hailed as a great following his 'win' over Marquez when he followed it up with nothing, and refused to leave Indonesia? Now he's finally gone stateside and struggled to barely get past Rocky Jurez, I'd say the lack of hype surrounding him was entirely justified?

What about Calderon? A very talented guy in the tiniest division, he finally earned his respect, and a top 10 p4p spot with the Ring by MOVING UP, taking a risk and beating the champ.

That Guzman is not in the top 10 p4p is entirely his own doing. He has a history of pulling out of the big fights and should in no way be rewarded with a p4p spot for costing Nate Campbell half a million dollars by refusing to fight him with less than 24 hours notice. I think Guzman is a great fighter but seriously fuck him, Carl Froch deserves to be places ahead of him, not because of his skills, but because he actually fights his fights, takes on the best and gets the wins.

Your hypothetical defence for mythical hard done by fighters is just a straw man argument.

couldn't get much weaker than 106 and Calderon managed to get on most people's p4p lists when he was dominating the division, so Fensters theory can go out the window

Exactly, argument rejected, case closed

[Kev]

So a guy with obvious skill/talent that operates in a weaker division, or can not get the top names in his division, gets overlooked P4P by a tough fighter in a strong divison.

Carl Froch should have more claims of being P4P than Guzman because he beat a "star" in Taylor, and backed it up with a win over a possible "star" in Dirrell?

difference is that Guzman has never looked like he was gonna lose, where Froch was getting schooled for the first 9 rounds against Taylor, and flat out got a home town decision against Dirrell, another fight were he was horribly outboxed, same way you had Haye beating Valuev you should have had Dirrell beating Froch, it was the same fight only difference was in weight class

Right.. but Froch has a better record than Guzman, right? He has beat a "star." He is unbeaten.

So judging P4P by resumes Froch would beat Guzman?

What idiot what back Froch to beat Guzman in a P4P fight?

None of what your saying is relavent. Why not let's just give Guzman a world title belt then as he'd likely win it anyway?

Fighters have to EARN their p4p spot not just get it handed to them because you 'think' they would beat the guy who holds the title.

Right now Froch, whether you like him or not is the undefeated super middlweight world champ, with wins over Taylor, Pascal and Dirrell.

Guzman is currently beltless and in a mythical p4p matchup between the two would be going in as the challenger with Froch being the champ. Yes he might start betting favourite, but he doesn't win the belt, or the place in the rankings occupied by Froch until he BEATS him.

That's how sporting competition works my friend, athletes judged on their acomplishments not their 'potential'.

if that was the case Darren Sutherlan RIP would be the Olympic Gold Medallist and James De Gale would have gone home in the semi finals

[Fenster]

difference is that Guzman has never looked like he was gonna lose, where Froch was getting schooled for the first 9 rounds against Taylor, and flat out got a home town decision against Dirrell, another fight were he was horribly outboxed, same way you had Haye beating Valuev you should have had Dirrell beating Froch, it was the same fight only difference was in weight class

Right.. but Froch has a better record than Guzman, right? He has beat a "star." He is unbeaten.

So judging P4P by resumes Froch would beat Guzman?

What idiot what back Froch to beat Guzman in a P4P fight?

None of what your saying is relavent. Why not let's just give Guzman a world title belt then as he'd likely win it anyway?

Fighters have to EARN their p4p spot not just get it handed to them because you 'think' they would beat the guy who holds the title.

Right now Froch, whether you like him or not is the undefeated super middlweight world champ, with wins over Taylor, Pascal and Dirrell.

Guzman is currently beltless and in a mythical p4p matchup between the two would be going in as the challenger with Froch being the champ. Yes he might start betting favourite, but he doesn't win the belt, or the place in the rankings occupied by Froch until he BEATS him.

That's how sporting competition works my friend, athletes judged on their acomplishments not their 'potential'.

if that was the case Darren Sutherlan RIP would be the Olympic Gold Medallist and James De Gale would have gone home in the semi finals

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled. That's the point of it. It is fantasy. You can't be proved right or wrong UNLESS the fighters actually fight.

If Wlad/Vitali took on Mayweather or Pac they'd kill them. The fight could not even happen, right?

But P4P (if they were the same size) Floyd or Pac would kill them, right?

That's why the emphasis should be on skill. Would you seriously back Froch against Guzman? Come on now..

[Kev]

Right.. but Froch has a better record than Guzman, right? He has beat a "star." He is unbeaten.

So judging P4P by resumes Froch would beat Guzman?

What idiot what back Froch to beat Guzman in a P4P fight?

None of what your saying is relavent. Why not let's just give Guzman a world title belt then as he'd likely win it anyway?

Fighters have to EARN their p4p spot not just get it handed to them because you 'think' they would beat the guy who holds the title.

Right now Froch, whether you like him or not is the undefeated super middlweight world champ, with wins over Taylor, Pascal and Dirrell.

Guzman is currently beltless and in a mythical p4p matchup between the two would be going in as the challenger with Froch being the champ. Yes he might start betting favourite, but he doesn't win the belt, or the place in the rankings occupied by Froch until he BEATS him.

That's how sporting competition works my friend, athletes judged on their acomplishments not their 'potential'.

if that was the case Darren Sutherlan RIP would be the Olympic Gold Medallist and James De Gale would have gone home in the semi finals

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled. That's the point of it. It is fantasy. You can't be proved right or wrong UNLESS the fighters actually fight.

If Wlad/Vitali took on Mayweather or Pac they'd kill them. The fight could not even happen, right?

But P4P (if they were the same size) Floyd or Pac would kill them, right?

That's why the emphasis should be on skill. Would you seriously back Froch against Guzman? Come on now..

It's still a process based on strict selection criteria though.

As for Floyd/Manny being the same size as Wlad/Vitali, truthfully I don't know who would win. How could you possibly predict what would happen?

Is Floyd jumping up to 6 ft 7 here or is Vitali coming down to 5 ft 7?

Does Floyd keep the same speed at this mythical weight? If so does Vitali keep the same power and length of jab? See how this is going, it's impossible to compare really and therefore the emphasis is on acomplishments.

Heavyweights arn't traditionally included in p4p assesments anyway but if they were I guess Wlad and David Haye would both have to be considerd. As much as I hate the Hayemaker, he is the former undisputed cruiserweight king and now heavyweight champ of the world. On a p4p scale if heavyweights were included I'd probably have him at number 10 even though I think his opposition was garbage and I believe there are 10 other fighters at heavyweight who could starch him.

The fact is, he has achieved what he has acheived fair and square and should be rated accordingly.

[Fenster]

None of what your saying is relavent. Why not let's just give Guzman a world title belt then as he'd likely win it anyway?

Fighters have to EARN their p4p spot not just get it handed to them because you 'think' they would beat the guy who holds the title.

Right now Froch, whether you like him or not is the undefeated super middlweight world champ, with wins over Taylor, Pascal and Dirrell.

Guzman is currently beltless and in a mythical p4p matchup between the two would be going in as the challenger with Froch being the champ. Yes he might start betting favourite, but he doesn't win the belt, or the place in the rankings occupied by Froch until he BEATS him.

That's how sporting competition works my friend, athletes judged on their acomplishments not their 'potential'.

if that was the case Darren Sutherlan RIP would be the Olympic Gold Medallist and James De Gale would have gone home in the semi finals

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled. That's the point of it. It is fantasy. You can't be proved right or wrong UNLESS the fighters actually fight.

If Wlad/Vitali took on Mayweather or Pac they'd kill them. The fight could not even happen, right?

But P4P (if they were the same size) Floyd or Pac would kill them, right?

That's why the emphasis should be on skill. Would you seriously back Froch against Guzman? Come on now..

It's still a process based on strict selection criteria though.

As for Floyd/Manny being the same size as Wlad/Vitali, truthfully I don't know who would win. How could you possibly predict what would happen?

Is Floyd jumping up to 6 ft 7 here or is Vitali coming down to 5 ft 7?

Does Floyd keep the same speed at this mythical weight? If so does Vitali keep the same power and length of jab? See how this is going, it's impossible to compare really and therefore the emphasis is on acomplishments.

Heavyweights arn't traditionally included in p4p assesments anyway but if they were I guess Wlad and David Haye would both have to be considerd. As much as I hate the Hayemaker, he is the former undisputed cruiserweight king and now heavyweight champ of the world. On a p4p scale if heavyweights were included I'd probably have him at number 10 even though I think his opposition was garbage and I believe there are 10 other fighters at heavyweight who could starch him.

The fact is, he has achieved what he has acheived fair and square and should be rated accordingly.

, it's flavour of the month. Look at The Ring's list (the most "credible"), beat a "star" you dive into the rankings.

Heavyweights aren't traditionally included because the heavyweight champ is meant to RULE over all other fighters from every division. P4P is to give smaller fighters a shot at competing with the king of boxing.

You don't know who would win mythical fights between Floyd/Pac-Vitali/Wlad?

How many fights have you seen where Floyd/Pac had HUGE weight/height/reach advantages over their opponents? They beat guys their own size, they move up weights to beat guys naturally bigger than them, they don't have the luxury of entering almost EVERY fight with a huge size ADVANTAGE like the Klits. The Klits don't need to be ranked P4P because they are already the rulers.

P4P is complete nonsense. You're trying to make it make sense. It doesn't.

[OumaFan]

I wouldn't have Donaire in my list but his win over Darchinyan is getting a little underrated by some, ELTerrible why would Paul Williams fighting Sergio Martinez at 160 be a bigger risk than Donaire fighting Darchinyan? Talk about a guy who hasn't had to beat any big names to become a name, the guy beat Alex Bunema, Alex Fucking Bunema! and all of a sudden he's a dangerman. LOL who hasn't beat Alex Bunema?

Bilbo I demand you become obsessed with Sergio Martinez. The guy's had a solid career but why has he all of a sudden become this badass on the back of a win over Bunema and an uninspired performance versus Cintron? Spam away.

I'm thinking of doing a P4P list, it will be 1/3 achievements, 1/3 perceived ability and 1/3 where they rank on my hate/love list. Wlad will be in the top 115. Somewhere.

[ElTerribleMorales]

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled. That's the point of it. It is fantasy. You can't be proved right or wrong UNLESS the fighters actually fight.

If Wlad/Vitali took on Mayweather or Pac they'd kill them. The fight could not even happen, right?

But P4P (if they were the same size) Floyd or Pac would kill them, right?

That's why the emphasis should be on skill. Would you seriously back Froch against Guzman? Come on now..

It's still a process based on strict selection criteria though.

As for Floyd/Manny being the same size as Wlad/Vitali, truthfully I don't know who would win. How could you possibly predict what would happen?

Is Floyd jumping up to 6 ft 7 here or is Vitali coming down to 5 ft 7?

Does Floyd keep the same speed at this mythical weight? If so does Vitali keep the same power and length of jab? See how this is going, it's impossible to compare really and therefore the emphasis is on acomplishments.

Heavyweights arn't traditionally included in p4p assesments anyway but if they were I guess Wlad and David Haye would both have to be considerd. As much as I hate the Hayemaker, he is the former undisputed cruiserweight king and now heavyweight champ of the world. On a p4p scale if heavyweights were included I'd probably have him at number 10 even though I think his opposition was garbage and I believe there are 10 other fighters at heavyweight who could starch him.

The fact is, he has achieved what he has acheived fair and square and should be rated accordingly.

, it's flavour of the month. Look at The Ring's list (the most "credible"), beat a "star" you dive into the rankings.

Heavyweights aren't traditionally included because the heavyweight champ is meant to RULE over all other fighters from every division. P4P is to give smaller fighters a shot at competing with the king of boxing.

You don't know who would win mythical fights between Floyd/Pac-Vitali/Wlad?

How many fights have you seen where Floyd/Pac had HUGE weight/height/reach advantages over their opponents? They beat guys their own size, they move up weights to beat guys naturally bigger than them, they don't have the luxury of entering almost EVERY fight with a huge size ADVANTAGE like the Klits. The Klits don't need to be ranked P4P because they are already the rulers.

P4P is complete nonsense. You're trying to make it make sense. It doesn't.

thing is it could logically be put out, but favorites always come into play with most people and that's where conflict builds

agree though that it's mainly built on opinion

[hfahrenheit]

How is Williams not p4p 10?

He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).

How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.

Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...

And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.

And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.

No sense in arguing any of that.

Hmm ok then so let's use YOUR logic to assess the rest of the p4p guys.

How many fights has Floyd won in the past 2 years? How many fighters has he fought in his own weight class in that time?

What about B Hop, I think he's 1-1 in that time?

Cotto? He's gone 2-1 with many thinking he should be 1-2.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Compare that with Floyd, two years off, and only fights guys two weight classes below him.

B Hop, one fight ever couple years, no interest in unifying any divisions, just wants handpicked fights for money.

Cotto, hasn't won a significant fight in a couple years.

Caballero, he's done more than Williams, really?

Donaire? Ok I'll give you him, his win over Darchinyan was immense, no doubting his pedigree.


By the way I'm not slating any of the fighters above, I think (Donaire aside) they all deserve p4p status, but Williams has proven himself repeatedly and absolutely deserves to be there.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Of those fighters how many arn't p4p?

Yes, I think the p4p ranking could stand to be more merit based.

And you must be Winky's #1 fan, because you're giving that fight entirely too much emphasis. You're acting as if Winky wasn't a has been coming into that fight, and he was. And, Winky was one of the best 154lbs fighters of the decade--he fought Williams at 160 were he did little more than head butt Jermain Taylor.

Paul Williams does not deserve a p4p ranking based of wins over winky, phillps, knolle, quintana, and margarito. None of those guys were anywhere near the p4p list when he fought them.

Floyd and b-hop have much better resumes. Period. No comparison. And because you can't completely eliminate everything subjective, they deserve to be there because of their accomplishments--certainly not because of who they're currently fighting.

Cotto - the Clottey fight was more of a quality fight than Winky, Phillps, and Knolle.

Yahoo! actually has Williams as the #3 guy (above B-hop and Mosely and scores of others) which is completely fucked.

I don't agree with Nonito or Caballero either, although Caballero is a talent.

Williams is a talented guy who hasn't gotten a chance. I get that.

But I think how we differ is that I don't automatically give Williams a win over someone like Pavlik, just because it looks like Pavlik ducked him...YOU STILL HAVE TO BEAT THEM IN THE RING TO GET CREDIT FOR THE WIN.

It looks like you give him the credit anyways.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Just Manny Pacquiao, just not in that order.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

If he continued to fight at 147, then yes; he should be dropped from the rankings...at 135, he's still one of the p4p best.

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Could be. Not "is." And God I wish Mosely, Floyd, Pavlik, Abraham, somebody would fight this guy so all the "what if's" would go away.

My only point is that we should wait until after he gets one of these fights (and wins) before we give him p4p status.

[Fenster]

It's still a process based on strict selection criteria though.

As for Floyd/Manny being the same size as Wlad/Vitali, truthfully I don't know who would win. How could you possibly predict what would happen?

Is Floyd jumping up to 6 ft 7 here or is Vitali coming down to 5 ft 7?

Does Floyd keep the same speed at this mythical weight? If so does Vitali keep the same power and length of jab? See how this is going, it's impossible to compare really and therefore the emphasis is on acomplishments.

Heavyweights arn't traditionally included in p4p assesments anyway but if they were I guess Wlad and David Haye would both have to be considerd. As much as I hate the Hayemaker, he is the former undisputed cruiserweight king and now heavyweight champ of the world. On a p4p scale if heavyweights were included I'd probably have him at number 10 even though I think his opposition was garbage and I believe there are 10 other fighters at heavyweight who could starch him.

The fact is, he has achieved what he has acheived fair and square and should be rated accordingly.

, it's flavour of the month. Look at The Ring's list (the most "credible"), beat a "star" you dive into the rankings.

Heavyweights aren't traditionally included because the heavyweight champ is meant to RULE over all other fighters from every division. P4P is to give smaller fighters a shot at competing with the king of boxing.

You don't know who would win mythical fights between Floyd/Pac-Vitali/Wlad?

How many fights have you seen where Floyd/Pac had HUGE weight/height/reach advantages over their opponents? They beat guys their own size, they move up weights to beat guys naturally bigger than them, they don't have the luxury of entering almost EVERY fight with a huge size ADVANTAGE like the Klits. The Klits don't need to be ranked P4P because they are already the rulers.

P4P is complete nonsense. You're trying to make it make sense. It doesn't.

thing is it could logically be put out, but favorites always come into play with most people and that's where conflict builds

agree though that it's mainly built on opinion

Concentrate son and you''ll always realise Fenster is right.

[ElTerribleMorales]

, it's flavour of the month. Look at The Ring's list (the most "credible"), beat a "star" you dive into the rankings.

Heavyweights aren't traditionally included because the heavyweight champ is meant to RULE over all other fighters from every division. P4P is to give smaller fighters a shot at competing with the king of boxing.

You don't know who would win mythical fights between Floyd/Pac-Vitali/Wlad?

How many fights have you seen where Floyd/Pac had HUGE weight/height/reach advantages over their opponents? They beat guys their own size, they move up weights to beat guys naturally bigger than them, they don't have the luxury of entering almost EVERY fight with a huge size ADVANTAGE like the Klits. The Klits don't need to be ranked P4P because they are already the rulers.

P4P is complete nonsense. You're trying to make it make sense. It doesn't.

thing is it could logically be put out, but favorites always come into play with most people and that's where conflict builds

agree though that it's mainly built on opinion

Concentrate son and you''ll always realise Fenster is right.

shut the fuck up and relish the fact that i actually agree with you for once hahaha

[Kev]

Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...

And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.

And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.

No sense in arguing any of that.

Hmm ok then so let's use YOUR logic to assess the rest of the p4p guys.

How many fights has Floyd won in the past 2 years? How many fighters has he fought in his own weight class in that time?

What about B Hop, I think he's 1-1 in that time?

Cotto? He's gone 2-1 with many thinking he should be 1-2.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Compare that with Floyd, two years off, and only fights guys two weight classes below him.

B Hop, one fight ever couple years, no interest in unifying any divisions, just wants handpicked fights for money.

Cotto, hasn't won a significant fight in a couple years.

Caballero, he's done more than Williams, really?

Donaire? Ok I'll give you him, his win over Darchinyan was immense, no doubting his pedigree.


By the way I'm not slating any of the fighters above, I think (Donaire aside) they all deserve p4p status, but Williams has proven himself repeatedly and absolutely deserves to be there.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Of those fighters how many arn't p4p?

Yes, I think the p4p ranking could stand to be more merit based.

And you must be Winky's #1 fan, because you're giving that fight entirely too much emphasis. You're acting as if Winky wasn't a has been coming into that fight, and he was. And, Winky was one of the best 154lbs fighters of the decade--he fought Williams at 160 were he did little more than head butt Jermain Taylor.

Paul Williams does not deserve a p4p ranking based of wins over winky, phillps, knolle, quintana, and margarito. None of those guys were anywhere near the p4p list when he fought them.

Floyd and b-hop have much better resumes. Period. No comparison. And because you can't completely eliminate everything subjective, they deserve to be there because of their accomplishments--certainly not because of who they're currently fighting.

Cotto - the Clottey fight was more of a quality fight than Winky, Phillps, and Knolle.

Yahoo! actually has Williams as the #3 guy (above B-hop and Mosely and scores of others) which is completely fucked.

I don't agree with Nonito or Caballero either, although Caballero is a talent.

Williams is a talented guy who hasn't gotten a chance. I get that.

But I think how we differ is that I don't automatically give Williams a win over someone like Pavlik, just because it looks like Pavlik ducked him...YOU STILL HAVE TO BEAT THEM IN THE RING TO GET CREDIT FOR THE WIN.

It looks like you give him the credit anyways.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Just Manny Pacquiao, just not in that order.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

If he continued to fight at 147, then yes; he should be dropped from the rankings...at 135, he's still one of the p4p best.

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Could be. Not "is." And God I wish Mosely, Floyd, Pavlik, Abraham, somebody would fight this guy so all the "what if's" would go away.

My only point is that we should wait until after he gets one of these fights (and wins) before we give him p4p status.

Margarito was a top 10 p4p guy and Williams beat him. He beat Winky better than ANY man has EVER beaten him. Ok so Winky was past it according to you but you can't say that based on his ring performances. He performed much better than Kelly Pavlik did against B Hop, some people thinking that fight was razor close. Williams didn't just beat him, he dominated him.

Guys like Quintana and Phillips may not be impressive to you but they are solid fighters. Do you disagree that Calderon should have been in the top p4p at any time? He beat some guy I've never heard of at 106 lbs who I guarantee wasn't as good as Margarito, then moved up and beat Hugo Cazares to win at light flyweight. Result, straight into the top 10 p4p.

Meanwhile Williams beat Margarito to win a world title at 147, certainly better than the anonymous 106 lb man, then moved up and beat Verno Phillips for a 154 lb belt, certainly appox equal to Cazares then moved up AGAIN and dominated a possible future Hall of Famer, I guess the equivilent of Calderon moving up again and beating Rapheal Marquez at super flyweight or something.

But he's not p4p whereas Calderon is?

You're talking out of your anus