What should a boxer think about when fighting/sparring?

[HerbM]

What should a boxer think about when fighting/sparring?

I can't recall ever hearing this discussed in any book, by any coach, nor by any boxing commentator or pundit.

Obviously, it's important to think in ways that help you hit and help you avoid getting hit, but what specific types of thoughts or mental calculations work best?

Simple things like "move, breath, jab more" might be all we need. Complex calculations -- when there is time -- like analyzing the opponent's style and mistakes and deciding on specific combinations could also be useful if this doesn't get in the way of dealing with the situation "right now".

There are probably an large number of other possibilities in between these extremes and likely some entirely different ideas as well so don't limit it to my examples above.

Recognizing that we are getting hit doing something we normal find successful and switching our behavior or even style (somewhat) might be useful. Conversely, noticing the effect we are having on our opponent can allow us to evaluate our successful (or unsuccessful) actions and do more or less of the most effective actions.

There are also different times during a fight, e.g., active exchanges, clinching, on the break or when fighters separate for reasons of their own, as well as between rounds but I am primarily asking about any time during the round here.

Since complex thought is difficult during an active exchange the answer is likely several answers for different levels of boxing intensity -- this also brings up the issue of transitioning: If complex thought is appropriate (to be discussed and argued I bet) then how do we decide/trigger that so we only do it at the "right time" (i.e., when it is effective and safe.)

What do you think is best?

What do you actually do?

What sort of benefits and problems does each type typically provide?

I know there are some other of you who are 'cerebral boxers' -- my bias and my skills lead me in this direction both when training AND during the fight. Some people obviously think better under pressure or during activity than others so this will also vary by fighter, but for myself I am even more cold and calculating when in danger as long as there is sufficient time for thought, but able to just go when there is not time.

I believe that everyone will agree that no matter what our thoughts are, that FOCUS is essential, we must only think about and attend to things that will aid our performance either immediately or (perhaps) fairly shortly ahead.

We do here "keep your eyes up" and "watch your opponent", but seldom do we hear what to watch or even less often what to THINK about what we see (and feel.)

--
HerbM

I am proud of myself a little bit: Yesterday, at 57 years old I went 10 straight minutes of LIGHT sparring (no breaks between rounds) and although I was working and tiring some, I was NOT in any way gassed out or losing my ability to fight intelligently or to BOX, even against the more advanced and more experienced boxers (we were about 5 or 6 pairs switching partners at 30-90 seconds.

It was a blast.

[Andre]

Queen and country.

[Andre]

To over think anything will slow you up so you cant let your hands go.

To train and spar with the correct forethought(thats the time to think) before you do; should get you into the zone,so that your answers come naturally in the ring.
Less thought the better for me otherwise it stops you getting in the zone.

To have a certain frame of mind is a different kettle of fish, to be enjoying yourself in there gives your mind the space it requires to be able to react to your best abilities.

If you are getting a hiding or losing focus try smiling to yourself inside and enjoy the moment you put yourself there; you may as well.

You find with humor and a inner smile to yourself etc, the brain relaxes slightly the time opens up for you because space has been made for your reactions to come through easier: While you do it, make space physically and angles.Follow their arms back in etc disrupt their timing.

Just my 2 cents .


Not that you shouldnt think at all, but you need to be at 110% and that requires a relaxed state of mind. If youre doing it under the hammer, you need to think I need space and make it by moving and making them readjust to you so that it gives you the space to react better.

[boozeboxer]

Lilacs and perennials. buttered mushrooms.

[HerbM]

To over think anything will slow you up...

To train and spar with the correct forethought(thats the time to think) before you do; should get you into the zone,so that your answers come naturally in the ring.
Less thought the better for me otherwise it stops you getting in the zone.

To have a certain frame of mind is a different kettle of fish, to be enjoying yourself in there gives your mind the space it requires to be able to react to your best abilities.

If you are getting a hiding or losing focus try smiling to yourself inside and enjoy the moment you put yourself there; you may as well.

You find with humor and a inner smile to yourself etc, the brain relaxes...


Not that you shouldnt think at all, but ...

If you're doing it under the hammer, you need to think I need space ...

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

And I completely agree with the idea and methods of having fun and relaxing -- smile, enjoy the ride, have fun, get into the zone....

As to THINKING, I read you as a minimalist, especially under the hammer -- think only enough to recognize you are in a bad place and give yourself a one or two word command to change that situation.

Again, I tend to agree when under the hammer (no time to think much there, except to MOVE, CHANGE the situation, GET SAFE, and HIT BACK -- BECOME the hammer or move to a new place.

Would you have a different opinion if you could think clearly and logically while maintaining focus and state and while having fun?

My favorite example of people who do this are top surgeons -- they can carry on complex thought and remain relaxed having fun for hours while staying in the zone of excellence.

Of course when faced with a sudden emergency situation they can go to mere reactions to stop the bleeding or restart the heart etc.

Also, combat fighter pilots do this as well, as well as demonstration team pilots like the Blue Angels I believe.

Do you believe complex thought is a poor idea in general, or only if it prevents maintaining the most effective state?

--
HerbM

[WayneFlint]

I agree 100% with andre, there was a thread like this not long ago and i said pretty much same thing ill say now, the work is done drilling your movements, just have fun sparring and i usually do well then, if i start worrying about how im doing or what im doing things go wrong, i think overall too much forethought while in the ring is what stops you from addapting as well, simply put just have fun and dont worry about getting hit too much and things usually go well for me, i think its that simple.

[Scrap]

One Sport you have to zone in is, Rockclimbing on serious stuff. But you dont go on a serious Climb without experiance, or you get hurt even Killed same as Boxing. Ive seen Boxers in the Dressing Room zoned in, by the time they have reached the Ring there Bottles completely gone. Thats when reality clicks in or occasion Hits Home. Doubts set in about preperation affecting confidence, everybody is different.

[HerbM]

I agree 100% with andre, there was a thread like this not long ago and i said pretty much same thing ill say now, the work is done drilling your movements, just have fun sparring and i usually do well then, if i start worrying about how im doing or what im doing things go wrong, i think overall too much forethought while in the ring is what stops you from addapting as well, simply put just have fun and dont worry about getting hit too much and things usually go well for me, i think its that simple.

Agreed that 'worrying' is counter-productive and that 'having fun' is both useful (in terms of success) and just MORE FUN.

How do you adapt if you don't think? Serious question, how does that work?

Do you (ideally) have any thoughts? How about the simple ideas like "move, relax" etc?

Personally, I CAN think and have fun at the same time, but this isn't in any sense worrying about 'getting hit' while still having fun -- but I am thinking about this more in the sense of 'got hit because....' and 'do this instead...' or 'good, got three hits in for that one' or 'he's giving me (something) when he does that'.

Not arguing (at least not yet) that this is good, but rather wanted to hear from people who have thought about this outside the ring and figured how what works for them or their fighters.

Heck, I LIKE getting HIT up to a point, as long as I am not getting injured and I am doing some hitting.

Part of what I currently talk to myself about is to remind myself to avoid getting hit even though it does NOT bother me. Especially in easy sparring, so I won't ignore a valid punch simply because we are going easy.

[boxer777]

Hello-Im old to this board but a new poster.

Just wanted to chime in because this is a discussion that interests me.

I think thinking is more useful to some fighters than others - the the best boxers i have sparred against have a great deal of animal instincts at their disposal.I asked one guy, who is has boxed internationally, what he thought about when he fought.He said nothing , he just reacts. So for him success

was based on achieving a state rather than being able to stratergize in-fight.

i wonder though where speed of thought comes in to this ? ie do the people who say they dont think, actually think but think too quickly for them to notice. i heard a guy talking about how one of the skills advanced boxers develop is the ability to slow down time - not in a woo woo way , but in the way

that when you come off a highway onto a normal road all the traffic seems to be crawling along, because your eyes and senses have become attuned to the speed of the highway.

A lot of the top boxers like Lennox Lewis(OK he's not top at the moment) Play a lot of chess, which trains the mind to be able to think under pressure and think in terms of strategy, offense and defense. And there are many books written on martial concepts like 'The Book of the Five Rings' and 'The Art

of War'(though, whilst not referring to boxing specifically, still address combat and the way things are) I think one of the key themes of those books was the merging of the mind and the body so that it can operate with most efficiency.

One quality that boxers also talk about it the importance of being able to adapt or they mock a fighter for being one dimentional surely these cliches point to of the importance of being able to think in the ring ?

I coach a few beginners and sometimes i will give them a mantra to say to themselves whilst body sparring something like "feet - alignment - chin - hands " its not ideal , but it helps keep the relevant things fresh in their mind.

I would be interested in hearing the things others find useful- the ones who are not naturally gifted with great natural reflexes.

[HerbM]

Boxer777, glad to see you posting, especially since you raise some good points. Glad to have your thoughts too....

Agreed that the value or cost of thinking will be different for different people, and that the fighter who cannot make changes is going to be at a disadvantage.

I also think the mantra (it doesn't have to sound so new age but that is as good a name as any and we use something similar when we teach Speed Reading of all things) is good for when we have no time for complex thoughts OR if we wish to 'jam' complex thought to enhance focus and avoid having our mind wander.

"Moving, breathing, relaxing, maintaining form" is my Systema mantra since those are the Systema principles -- they are so essential to Systema and so compatible with other combat arts (esp. boxing and BJJ) that I turned this into one word: Brealaxaformoving. Might sound silly but it is all I now need to remind me to always be doing all four. It is also a progressive verb to emphasize that these are ongoing actions that never complete.

I originally didn't make too much of the idea of adaptation being necessary since a boxer with a good coach can get much of this between rounds (if he survives that long ), but this is part of my belief in the value of thinking and evaluating for oneself during the round.

You are correct about Lennox Lewis boxing much like a chess master -- and we can relate this even more directly to "5 minute chess" -- a common pass time of advanced chess players where a clock is used but each player has a maximum of 5 minutes for his own ENTIRE game. (At one time I was such an advanced chess player.) Such players make MOST moves from either memory (they have seen this opening position many times) or by instinct, or by principle (develop pieces, castle the king, control the center, attack with pawns, open rows and move rooks to them etc), and only slow from time to time for more thorough strategizing.

Of course, chess is a move response game, i.e., you cannot get hit when it is your move, so this is a little bit different from boxing where with speed you can hit three times for each response of your opponent (or vice versa.).

Time distortion (technically tachypsychia) is a fairly well known phenomenon in stressful situations such as combat and has been studied in the context of police officer involved shootings quite a bit.

I have been separately interested in this phenomenon for some time, and more specifically in how to induce and use the effect at will or under conscious triggering.

Oddly enough, tachypsychia under stress can both speed up or slow down perceived time -- slowing of time seems to happen about twice as often in the police studies and seems more USEFUL to me, but some survivors did just fine with "everything a blur".

Various theories exist for the cause, e.g., adrenaline (or dopamine, norepenephrine, etc) effects, focus and remembrance of key details (essential to survival) while ignoring the irrelevant, or perhaps it is some mechanism of the mind itself. Probably at least the first two in combination in my opinion.

My background also includes extensive training in NLP (neuro-linguistic programming) which uses tools from hypnosis and I have been involved with many experiments where various mental perceptions and physical capabilities were altered temporarily and believe that we CAN learn to engage this behavior if we can figure out how to model it sufficiently.

Vladimir Vasiliev, the top Systema teacher in America (and his teacher in Moscow is Mikhael Ryabko), is so effective at self-defense against multiple opponents (even with knives or other weapons) that I formed the preliminary conclusion that he can engage slow time tachypsychia at will. I haven't proven this but strongly suspect it and wish I were able engage this skill reliably.

Focus is likely a key element to achieving effective tachypsychia. Relaxation (getting back to having fun also) is likely helpful (or even essential) as well.

I don't know if fear is necessary but doubt that it is essential even if it might commonly PROMPT the effect.

Supposedly TRAINING makes it more likely -- this may however be simply that those who are highly skilled can work on 'automatic', know how to focus only on the essentials, or otherwise are calm enough to remember clearly the effects.

Another idea that I had in relation to 'thinking' is that if complex thinking is a poor idea then it would be wise to have sets of 'trigger' events that would automatically invoke complex pre-built plans. The idea is to remove these from conscious thought and move them to instinctual response.

By necessity we do this with small things that happen too rapidly for complex though -- we practice throw and catch drills until we can catch or parry without thinking -- no time to think about that when a fist is coming at your head.

--
HerbM

[Scrap]

Its all down to Psychodynamics, programed thought and History of it. I remember a Kid I had cool as a cucumber, nothing fazed Him good Fighter. One night He had a Headache 20 mins before a Fight. I sensed there was something wrong, He admitted He was nervous, I relieved the pressure by manipulation. I asked Him did He get nervous before a Fight often, as He never before had shown signs of it. His reply all the time, He held His self together. Now this made me nervous, but that night the Kid went out,and gave the performance of His life and won the World Title.

[Andre]

Its a big subject when you think that something as small as a thought can effect your whole system.
Its like when you know something but cant remember what it is; no matter how hard you try to remember it. Its only when you give up and go and concentrate on something else is when your mind has the space to work and then when you are doing something else the answer pops into your head and you say "OH yeah"! why the hell couldnt I think of that when I needed it!

Your mind needed to be given the space to work.

[WayneFlint]

I agree 100% with andre, there was a thread like this not long ago and i said pretty much same thing ill say now, the work is done drilling your movements, just have fun sparring and i usually do well then, if i start worrying about how im doing or what im doing things go wrong, i think overall too much forethought while in the ring is what stops you from addapting as well, simply put just have fun and dont worry about getting hit too much and things usually go well for me, i think its that simple.

Agreed that 'worrying' is counter-productive and that 'having fun' is both useful (in terms of success) and just MORE FUN.

How do you adapt if you don't think? Serious question, how does that work?

Do you (ideally) have any thoughts? How about the simple ideas like "move, relax" etc?

Personally, I CAN think and have fun at the same time, but this isn't in any sense worrying about 'getting hit' while still having fun -- but I am thinking about this more in the sense of 'got hit because....' and 'do this instead...' or 'good, got three hits in for that one' or 'he's giving me (something) when he does that'.

Not arguing (at least not yet) that this is good, but rather wanted to hear from people who have thought about this outside the ring and figured how what works for them or their fighters.

Heck, I LIKE getting HIT up to a point, as long as I am not getting injured and I am doing some hitting.

Part of what I currently talk to myself about is to remind myself to avoid getting hit even though it does NOT bother me. Especially in easy sparring, so I won't ignore a valid punch simply because we are going easy.

I agree with this last sentance 100% and i find myself in this situation sometimes just not caring about someones jab because its not a damaging shot in slow sparring, this became a habbit with one guy i sparr with so what i do is make sure i spar with somone with a good jab aswell the next day or next time i sparr, aswell there is a guy thats got 3 stone on me that ill sometimes sparr with, even with a glove in the way of some of the shots it rattles me which i like doing incase i find myself in a bad way in the ring and have to just cover up and try n hold on then it doesnt seem half as bad against someone closer to my own weight, i have to say this is quite a good subject and its had me thinking about things i have never really thought about before, but basically i would say there are tiny little thoughts going on like you mentioned when you get the better or worse end of an exchange, when you see an opening you might go for the next time it appears etc but atleast in my case these types of thoughts just seem to happen automatically without really considering them as actual thoughts, maybe thats because ive fought in different martial arts since a young age and im just used to these thoughts so much that they dont really seem like a big part of things while fighting if you get me? the only time i would say i do actually try and think things out is when im doing slow sparring trying to figure out and get the timing down for a new move or lure them into a trap, but over time ive tried to stop doing this as i think it slows you down a little, ive tried to just have a sort of system when i come out in the first round and have 1 trick lead my fighter onto the next etc, so i dont have to think about it so much while boxing, i think by getting into this system way of fighting it allows alot more speed because when you think about it in a fight speed isnt just being able to physically move fast, its a mixture of 3 things, reflex on how quickly you react to your opponent starts with you eyes i think, they see whats going on and then its your brain/reflexes turn to make a decision on what you will do to evade this attack, and then its the physical speed in which you can actually do the selected counter movement that is the final contribution to the overall speed of things, wouldnt it be great if there was a way to train and improve this process? sort of getting side tracked from my point, anyway to answer your question, yes there are little thoughts going on in there but i think they are more like your sub con just sort of relaying bak to you whats actually happening during the fight like a check list, rather than actual thought of what im going to do next. this is a good subject though im definently interested on what other people think or dont think while boxing? it probably comes down to everyone being different and having their own way of dealing with things, just like personality the way someone would approach a fight or any task depends on their brain and how it works things out and that depends on the everyday interactions and experiences that have helped to form that brains opinions on things as its gone through life, i watched a programme on the brain the other day it was really fascinating to find out how it might actually work and how the everyday interactions and situations that youve experienced through life is what sort of moulds you ,determines your personality/views on certain things and gives people their indervidual personalities, oops gone off track again >.<

[HerbM]

...
, i have to say this is quite a good subject and its had me thinking about things i have never really thought about before, but basically i would say there are tiny little thoughts going on like you mentioned when you get the better or worse end of an exchange, when you see an opening you might go for the next time it appears etc but atleast in my case these types of thoughts just seem to happen automatically without really considering them as actual thoughts, maybe thats because ive fought in different martial arts since a young age and im just used to these thoughts so much that they dont really seem like a big part of things while fighting if you get me?

It being automatic is pretty much similar to my experience.

A big part of my motivation for the question is to decide if this is a 'good thing' so as to change it if it's not the optimum.

My goal is to think about as many things as possible AHEAD of time, outside the ring, so as to avoid having any unnecessary indecision, delay, or distraction in the ring.

And this includes 'thinking about thinking' -- figure out as much as possible ahead of time and keep the brain cycles for critical items that need focus in the moment.

...i think by getting into this system way of fighting it allows alot more speed because when you think about it in a fight speed isnt just being able to physically move fast, its a mixture of 3 things, reflex on how quickly you react to your opponent starts with you eyes i think, they see whats going on and then its your brain/reflexes turn to make a decision on what you will do to evade this attack, and then its the physical speed in which you can actually do the selected counter movement that is the final contribution to the overall speed of things, wouldnt it be great if there was a way to train and improve this process?

There are ways to train this process, and this was another major part of my reason for the question.

The best set of tools for directly changing your neurological responses are from NLP (neuro-linguistic programming.)

sort of getting side tracked from my point, anyway to answer your question, yes there are little thoughts going on in there but i think they are more like your sub con just sort of relaying bak to you whats actually happening during the fight like a check list, rather than actual thought of what im going to do next. this is a good subject though im definently interested on what other people think or dont think while boxing?

Me too -- but most people responding so far has just said to avoid thinking. About the only responses of people describing their (desired) thoughts were simple things along the lines of "move" etc.

I know that I do decide consciously (sometimes) things like moving around to the right versus going left -- or whether I will bob and weave or just through while advancing.

I don't do either of these or many other things automatically (i.e., in the same way each time) and I believe that is a good thing since it make my movements less predictable, but it can be a bad thing if it slows down those.

Usually these types of thoughts and decisions are active when we are separating to re-engage. That is we are on a break or one of us escapes from the ropes or from an attack, and gets a lot of space between us etc.

There is a bit more time for complex thoughts before the re-engagement.

It's also possible (effecitive) to do this when my opponent and I have closed only enough to 'feel each other out', but not enough to deliver heavy blows without changing the separation.

It's a little more dangerous at this range since a sudden forward drive by your opponent can quickly change the situation and getting distracted is NOT a good thing.

There is also the issue of how much thought vs. how automatic to make the jabs and other shots to open areas. Decisions on how deep to drive or whether to just take the quick hit and get away again etc.

it probably comes down to everyone being different and having their own way of dealing with things, just like personality the way someone would approach a fight or any task depends on their brain and how it works things out and that depends on the everyday interactions and experiences that have helped to form that brains opinions on things as its gone through life,

Absolutely true that everyone is different, but I asked the question to avoid assuming that my natural (untrained) methods were the best or most effective even for me.

I wanted to hear as much as possible of what others do and bring this into the area of conscious decision (outside the ring) so as to optimize the effectiveness of whatever thought we do have -- or avoid.

Just like planning footwork or combinations, figuring out these things ahead of time, practicing even this seemingly automatic activity can improve our performance in the moment.

It's possible that staying in some sort of 'zen no-mind' state ALL of the time is best. It's also possible that some other, or some combination of mental states (changing as the situation changes) may be best.

Once we have some idea of what the best methods are, we can train and practice those, just like we train and practice other skills and techniques.

The oddity here is that most boxing coaches (or other physical activity trainers) don't usually discuss these issues.

i watched a programme on the brain the other day it was really fascinating to find out how it might actually work and how the everyday interactions and situations that youve experienced through life is what sort of moulds you ,determines your personality/views on certain things and gives people their indervidual personalities, oops gone off track again >.<

Not a problem -- the above is true, and precisely because it is true we can consciously work to affect this molding.

There are training methods for the brain that are very nearly as explicit as those for the body.

[boxer777]

some good points being made in here - its making for interesting reading.
I sparred yesterday and realised that my effectivness was significantly affected by my thoughts.
I found that very simple concepts could raise my game massivly depending on how immune i was to being distracted from it.
firstly i found that having a plan before i started the round automatically put me at an advantage - because i didnt have to waste reaction time thinking about what to do. the plans i am talking about are nothing special - very basic infact things you hear corner men saying all the time during fights - like get the jab working - or moveforward when hitting .
The reason i think this is so useful is because it gives the mind a direction/goal - i read a quote once from a guy called maxwell maltz which said the mind is like a bicycle - if it is moving in a direction it is very easy to balance, but if you try staying still on it ballancing is very difficult.
i think the point im making is that the mind likes goals. without them it feels lost , and will start to look for goals or threats - in sparring i guess that could equate to being so preoccupied with geting hit/hurt that you cant be proactive.
once a plan has been set - i think the next challenge is not being distracted- again the way the mind works is to follo w a plan unless it percieves that there is a threat to the bodies safety - so the struggle with the mind will be to constantly remind it to stick to the plan and not get sucked into the rhythm or plan of your opponent.
this happens to me all the time. ill start a round with the intention of throwing no less than 2 shots each exchange-to get out of the habbit of just throwing single shots, and at the end of the round ill realize that i totally abandoned my plan after 1 min and went back to just single shot counterpunching!
to put it into a nutshell - i find having a very simple plan for each round very useful. the bulk of the mind work then becomes not being distracted from it .
Theres a good book by chess grandmaster Gary Kasperov - called how chess is like life (i think) it covers a lot of mental stratergies and applications and how they can be used to increase the power and effectivness of the mind.

If i were a bit more organized i might prepare a list of plans - say for a 5 round spar that would look like this
r1 - establish the jab
r2 - change levels (head and body)
r3- work on 1-2 and 1-2-1 combos
r4- try to get on the inside
r5 - throw no less than 2 punches at a time