On their very best night who wins the all time heavyweight prizefighter competition?

[Dark Lord Al]

Liston was a plodder , prime george foreman beheads him , and if a light punching ali boxes him to a standstill , larry holmes / Lewis / vitali / all beat him for me.

Sonny Liston used to spar with George Foreman, supposedly taught him all the bullying tactics.

Yes i know , but Liston was at his peak when he fought patterson , Foreman at his peak when he fought ali , put them together and i think Foreman stops him inside 3 rounds.
would love to have seen the fight

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Hmmmm....

Just found these (Opinions on Foreman Vs Liston):

Ernie Terrell
Chicago based promoter Ernie Terrell is a former WBA heavyweight champion.

"Oh boy, it would have been something to watch! We're talking about two very tough men, not just tough fighters, Liston was a very good boxer in his prime, which was the late-50's and early-60's. I sparred with him, but since I was much taller, and was a boxer, his jab, which was one of his best weopons, didn't affect me the way it did most other fighters. Physically, he could do more in the ring than Foreman.
It's a shame Foreman couldn't combine the power and speed of his youth with the improved defense and maturaity he shows today. Still, he was a very strong guy. Most of the men he knocked out he hurt first. Foreman had a great chin, but even greater determination. Getting up from those knockdowns and coming back to beat Ron Lyle proved what he was made of.
The fight would flow the same way Foreman-Lyle did. Both men would connect with big punches. But Liston was abetter all-round boxer, and he was certainly a better puncher than Lyle. By o means would it be an easy fight for Liston. But I see him coming on as Foreman weakens, and scoring a knockout around the 11th round."


Chuck Wepner
A heavyweight contender in the 70's, Chuck Wepener was stopped by both Liston and Foreman.

"I fought Liston in his last fight, and Foreman when he was on his way up, so I speak from experience when I say they were two of the hardest punchers ever. it would be hard to match two harder-hitting heavyweights. Even though I though Liston was at the end, I thought he was still a very good boxer. He took a good punch, and he had a lot of savvy. In his prime, he could do it all.
When he was younger, Foreman's most impressive quality was his awesome brute strength. He liked to push people around, but he could be wild with his punches, and that cost him against Muhammad Ali. He was alot like Liston then. Both liked to intimidate their opponents, but you couldn't intimidate either one of them. With George, though, it was an act; he's always been a good guy.
It would be an action packed fight. Both had good, hard jabs, and didn't hesitate to open up and throw bombs. But Liston was a much better boxer. i don't beleive anyone could have beaten Liston in his prime, including Ali. I see Liston stopping Foreman in six or seven rounds."

[BIG H]

This is quite interesting - not relevant to teh criteria of this thread, but anyway....

Heavyweight Fighter of Century as chosen by a five-member panel for The Associated Press in 1999:

1. Muhammad Ali, 56-5, 37 KO's; Career: 1960-81, 19 years active.
2. Joe Louis, 68-3, 54 KO's; Career: 1934-51, 14 years active.
3. Rocky Marciano, 49-0, 43 KO's; Career: 1947-55, 9 years active.
4. Jack Dempsey, 61-6-8, 50 KO's, 6 ND; Career: 1914-27, 11 years active.
5. Jack Johnson, 78-13-11, 49 KO's, 18 ND; Career: 1897-1938, 30 years active.
6 Larry Holmes, 67-6, 43 KO's; Career: 1973-99, 23 years active.
7. Sonny Liston, 50-4, 39 KO's; Career: 1953-70, 17 years active.
8. Joe Frazier, 32-4-1, 27 KO's; Career: 1965-81, 13 years active.
9. Sam Langford, 167-38-37, 117 KO's, 48 ND; Career: 1902-26, 25 years active.
10 Jersey Joe Walcott, 53-18-1, 33 KO's; Career: 1930-53, 20 years active.

[El Kabong]

This is quite interesting - not relevant to teh criteria of this thread, but anyway....

Heavyweight Fighter of Century as chosen by a five-member panel for The Associated Press in 1999:

1. Muhammad Ali, 56-5, 37 KO's; Career: 1960-81, 19 years active.
2. Joe Louis, 68-3, 54 KO's; Career: 1934-51, 14 years active.
3. Rocky Marciano, 49-0, 43 KO's; Career: 1947-55, 9 years active.
4. Jack Dempsey, 61-6-8, 50 KO's, 6 ND; Career: 1914-27, 11 years active.
5. Jack Johnson, 78-13-11, 49 KO's, 18 ND; Career: 1897-1938, 30 years active.
6 Larry Holmes, 67-6, 43 KO's; Career: 1973-99, 23 years active.
7. Sonny Liston, 50-4, 39 KO's; Career: 1953-70, 17 years active.
8. Joe Frazier, 32-4-1, 27 KO's; Career: 1965-81, 13 years active.
9. Sam Langford, 167-38-37, 117 KO's, 48 ND; Career: 1902-26, 25 years active.
10 Jersey Joe Walcott, 53-18-1, 33 KO's; Career: 1930-53, 20 years active.

The AP gets a lot of stuff wrong and not just in boxing, so forgive me for disagreeing with them but
#1 Joe Louis
#2 Rocky Marciano
#3 Ali

...Dempsey defended his title how many times? Jack Johnson I get, but Dempsey? #4?!?! Langford never even won the title and Walcott wasn't all that impressive as a champion either. Liston had a short reign at the top too.

Now plenty of people may disagree with me based on who fought who and eras and size, strength, speed, skill etc...but Louis and Marciano DOMINATED their eras...I reckon you can put Holmes in that fold as well but Louis was champ for a long time and his record of successful title defenses as heavyweight champion still stands. If you want to talk about fighter x vs fighter y then that's a different story and Ali is probably rated higher, but still Louis is up there.

[BIG H]

This is quite interesting - not relevant to teh criteria of this thread, but anyway....

Heavyweight Fighter of Century as chosen by a five-member panel for The Associated Press in 1999:

1. Muhammad Ali, 56-5, 37 KO's; Career: 1960-81, 19 years active.
2. Joe Louis, 68-3, 54 KO's; Career: 1934-51, 14 years active.
3. Rocky Marciano, 49-0, 43 KO's; Career: 1947-55, 9 years active.
4. Jack Dempsey, 61-6-8, 50 KO's, 6 ND; Career: 1914-27, 11 years active.
5. Jack Johnson, 78-13-11, 49 KO's, 18 ND; Career: 1897-1938, 30 years active.
6 Larry Holmes, 67-6, 43 KO's; Career: 1973-99, 23 years active.
7. Sonny Liston, 50-4, 39 KO's; Career: 1953-70, 17 years active.
8. Joe Frazier, 32-4-1, 27 KO's; Career: 1965-81, 13 years active.
9. Sam Langford, 167-38-37, 117 KO's, 48 ND; Career: 1902-26, 25 years active.
10 Jersey Joe Walcott, 53-18-1, 33 KO's; Career: 1930-53, 20 years active.

The AP gets a lot of stuff wrong and not just in boxing, so forgive me for disagreeing with them but
#1 Joe Louis
#2 Rocky Marciano
#3 Ali

...Dempsey defended his title how many times? Jack Johnson I get, but Dempsey? #4?!?! Langford never even won the title and Walcott wasn't all that impressive as a champion either. Liston had a short reign at the top too.

Now plenty of people may disagree with me based on who fought who and eras and size, strength, speed, skill etc...but Louis and Marciano DOMINATED their eras...I reckon you can put Holmes in that fold as well but Louis was champ for a long time and his record of successful title defenses as heavyweight champion still stands. If you want to talk about fighter x vs fighter y then that's a different story and Ali is probably rated higher, but still Louis is up there.

I don't like the list at all!

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Guys, come on

It says ''Heavyweight FIGHTER of the Century' not CHAMPION.... Big difference

[El Kabong]

Guys, come on

It says ''Heavyweight FIGHTER of the Century' not CHAMPION.... Big difference

OK, if that's what they are asking for it is hands down Joe Louis anyone else is a DISTANT second

[Dark Lord Al]

Hmmmm....

Just found these (Opinions on Foreman Vs Liston):

Ernie Terrell
Chicago based promoter Ernie Terrell is a former WBA heavyweight champion.

"Oh boy, it would have been something to watch! We're talking about two very tough men, not just tough fighters, Liston was a very good boxer in his prime, which was the late-50's and early-60's. I sparred with him, but since I was much taller, and was a boxer, his jab, which was one of his best weopons, didn't affect me the way it did most other fighters. Physically, he could do more in the ring than Foreman.
It's a shame Foreman couldn't combine the power and speed of his youth with the improved defense and maturaity he shows today. Still, he was a very strong guy. Most of the men he knocked out he hurt first. Foreman had a great chin, but even greater determination. Getting up from those knockdowns and coming back to beat Ron Lyle proved what he was made of.
The fight would flow the same way Foreman-Lyle did. Both men would connect with big punches. But Liston was abetter all-round boxer, and he was certainly a better puncher than Lyle. By o means would it be an easy fight for Liston. But I see him coming on as Foreman weakens, and scoring a knockout around the 11th round."


Chuck Wepner
A heavyweight contender in the 70's, Chuck Wepener was stopped by both Liston and Foreman.

"I fought Liston in his last fight, and Foreman when he was on his way up, so I speak from experience when I say they were two of the hardest punchers ever. it would be hard to match two harder-hitting heavyweights. Even though I though Liston was at the end, I thought he was still a very good boxer. He took a good punch, and he had a lot of savvy. In his prime, he could do it all.
When he was younger, Foreman's most impressive quality was his awesome brute strength. He liked to push people around, but he could be wild with his punches, and that cost him against Muhammad Ali. He was alot like Liston then. Both liked to intimidate their opponents, but you couldn't intimidate either one of them. With George, though, it was an act; he's always been a good guy.
It would be an action packed fight. Both had good, hard jabs, and didn't hesitate to open up and throw bombs. But Liston was a much better boxer. i don't beleive anyone could have beaten Liston in his prime, including Ali. I see Liston stopping Foreman in six or seven rounds."

Im most interested in Chucks view , and I will not hear of him being punch drunk.

[DaxxKahn]

Vitali Klitschko the best Heavyweight ever along with Lennox Lewis ? LOL sorry that made me laugh hysterically. Based on what exactly ? outside of the Lennox Lewis fight his career has been very average. I mean his best win is probably against Corrie Sanders.

just based on what i see

you dont have to have the same opinion

IMO having Ali as the best heavyweight of all time is stupid talk

ok maybe he is greatest in what he represented and how he moved the sport forward and what he achieved outside the ring, i wouldnt disagree with that, but in the ring? Naaaaaaaaaaaaa

I can understand saying Ali is not the best HW of all time P4P but hard to argue him not being top 2 or 3....

6'3" gave him enough size to compete in any era...In fact he is larger then most heavyweights in eras prior.....He could take abuse beyond what most men could dream of...Down yes but never knocked out cold...Including against argueably the hardest p4p puncher ever in Foreman....First three time HW champion...He fought in an era where HW boxing was at its best and everyone had a different style but were the cream of the crop at that style.....His speed was amazing, he had credible power and was a master at making adjustments in the ring.......

Liston, Quarry, Foreman, Frazier, Patterson, Chuvalo, Moore, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Foster, Norton, Lyle....I mean those alone are a gauntlet that no other HW can claim even close to in talent as in terms of opposition....Shit the contenders were better then most of the champions we have had in HW history....

Maybe not #1 maybe so but dismissed with a "Naaaaaa"....I mean really this is Ali I don't understand how a case even has to be made for his status

i dont doubt ali is in the top 5 but people seem to place him unconditionally at number one and scoff at the fact that it might not be the case

My overall view of that era is that it was no better or richer in tallent than any other its just there was no real standout heavyweight so the fights were close and Ali was around and his mouth did all the talking

some of the guys you mentioned in your list would be beaten by the klits in exactly the same way as most of the contenders do today

cooper lost loads of fights

ali defended against london who wouldnt be top 20 in britain today

I was just giving names off the top of my head some like ones you mentioned are not ATG material but were damn though....Today how often do we see any fighter let alone a HW (As if there was enough HW talent to provide a quality list) fight so many big names?..........The fact that 85% of the guys of that era were so good and fact many such as Quarry, Shavers etc would have held a world title in most other eras even if briefly shows the quality of comp IMO...

I do agree 100% on the fact many people place Ali as #1 just because of the name...Many of those people are not true boxing entusiast and go by reputation alone...Personally many times I have stated on forums and in articles that Jack Johnson has a strong case for being the #1 considering how far past his time he was and fact he had size, power and speed to be able and compete in any era....I mean if you look at some old footage of him he was doing Ali type moves 50+ years before Ali ever laced gloves.....I just disagreed with the "Naaa" part because it came across as if Ali was a guy who was overrated in a Sven Ottke sort of way

[IronDanLaw]

Huge bump but Lennox Lewis. I believe on his day in his prime, he could have beaten any Heavyweight in history.

[chinchekked]

I am a fan of boxing.....that being said it is easy to lean towards certain fighters as favorites and overrate them. However I have to defend the fact that Ali being # 1 does NOT bother me. It is my opinion that many people do hail him as the best based on name and reputation alone without even looking at the other options. IMO though I think that he is top 3 without a doubt. I also believe that he did fight in a better era of heayweights as stated earlier in this thread. For anyone who says that today's heavyweights are as good I ask you this.......how many fighters showed up to fight Ali looking like Kirk Johnson vs Klit.

[brocktonblockbust]

AT HIS VERY VERY BEST Rocky Marciano would never ever get the Least bit tired and would actually on the contrary become stronger and stronger as the fight went on---do you know any fighters who were like that? Frazier tired, Ali tired, Lewis really tired, Tyson tired, Bowe and Holyfield turned to sluggish lumbering clinchers, Shavers couldnt keep his hands up--- etc... I think Larry Holmes woulda given Marciano the most trouble, if anybody could OUTLAST this guy. Who could outlast Marciano? He was a frikkin steeamroller, steamin over all the people, this guy threw 100+ punches per round, like a frikkin windmill. TELL ME WHO COULD STAND UP TO THAT

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

AT HIS VERY VERY BEST Rocky Marciano would never ever get the Least bit tired and would actually on the contrary become stronger and stronger as the fight went on---do you know any fighters who were like that? Frazier tired, Ali tired, Lewis really tired, Tyson tired, Bowe and Holyfield turned to sluggish lumbering clinchers, Shavers couldnt keep his hands up--- etc... I think Larry Holmes woulda given Marciano the most trouble, if anybody could OUTLAST this guy. Who could outlast Marciano? He was a frikkin steeamroller, steamin over all the people, this guy threw 100+ punches per round, like a frikkin windmill. TELL ME WHO COULD STAND UP TO THAT

I reckon Sonny Liston would blast him inside of 5.

[brocktonblockbust]

not a chance

[erics44]

Vitali Klitschko the best Heavyweight ever along with Lennox Lewis ? LOL sorry that made me laugh hysterically. Based on what exactly ? outside of the Lennox Lewis fight his career has been very average. I mean his best win is probably against Corrie Sanders.

just based on what i see

you dont have to have the same opinion

IMO having Ali as the best heavyweight of all time is stupid talk

ok maybe he is greatest in what he represented and how he moved the sport forward and what he achieved outside the ring, i wouldnt disagree with that, but in the ring? Naaaaaaaaaaaaa

I can understand saying Ali is not the best HW of all time P4P but hard to argue him not being top 2 or 3....

6'3" gave him enough size to compete in any era...In fact he is larger then most heavyweights in eras prior.....He could take abuse beyond what most men could dream of...Down yes but never knocked out cold...Including against argueably the hardest p4p puncher ever in Foreman....First three time HW champion...He fought in an era where HW boxing was at its best and everyone had a different style but were the cream of the crop at that style.....His speed was amazing, he had credible power and was a master at making adjustments in the ring.......

Liston, Quarry, Foreman, Frazier, Patterson, Chuvalo, Moore, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Foster, Norton, Lyle....I mean those alone are a gauntlet that no other HW can claim even close to in talent as in terms of opposition....Shit the contenders were better then most of the champions we have had in HW history....

Maybe not #1 maybe so but dismissed with a "Naaaaaa"....I mean really this is Ali I don't understand how a case even has to be made for his status

i dont doubt ali is in the top 5 but people seem to place him unconditionally at number one and scoff at the fact that it might not be the case

My overall view of that era is that it was no better or richer in tallent than any other its just there was no real standout heavyweight so the fights were close and Ali was around and his mouth did all the talking

some of the guys you mentioned in your list would be beaten by the klits in exactly the same way as most of the contenders do today

cooper lost loads of fights

ali defended against london who wouldnt be top 20 in britain today

I was just giving names off the top of my head some like ones you mentioned are not ATG material but were damn though....Today how often do we see any fighter let alone a HW (As if there was enough HW talent to provide a quality list) fight so many big names?..........The fact that 85% of the guys of that era were so good and fact many such as Quarry, Shavers etc would have held a world title in most other eras even if briefly shows the quality of comp IMO...

I do agree 100% on the fact many people place Ali as #1 just because of the name...Many of those people are not true boxing entusiast and go by reputation alone...Personally many times I have stated on forums and in articles that Jack Johnson has a strong case for being the #1 considering how far past his time he was and fact he had size, power and speed to be able and compete in any era....I mean if you look at some old footage of him he was doing Ali type moves 50+ years before Ali ever laced gloves.....I just disagreed with the "Naaa" part because it came across as if Ali was a guy who was overrated in a Sven Ottke sort of way

you might be right, these fighters like Shavers or Quarry may well have been champs in any other era

im inclined to think their stock is much bigger than their tallent because of the era they fought in and the fact they fought ali and everything that was going on outside the ring