The best

[Violent Demise]

Let me get this right - Froch has ecplised Cazlaghe even though he lost to a man Calzaghe comfortably beat?

Calzaghe schools Kessler. Froch loses to Kessler. That makes Froch better? Hmmm....

If FRoch-Calzaghe ever happened there's only one winner. Froch is a tortoise for Calzaghe. Borderline mismatch.

Of course. Everybody knows Fighter A would never beat Fighter B. Cuz Fighter A lost to Fighter C. And Fighter B beat Fighter C.

The triangle theory. A true sign of desperation

Nothing to do with that.

Calzaghe and Froch are basically fighters from different eras. Froch didn't turn pro until FIVE years after Calzaghe beat Chris Eubank.

How can Calzaghe be matched against Froch's current opposition when he's retired? Likewise how can Froch be matched against Calzaghe's opposition considering he wasn't around in that era? It's nothing but guesswork.

However, they have a common opponent. Mikkel Kessler. He is arguably the best supermiddleweight either have faced. Calzaghe beat him when he was unbeaten. Froch LOST to him after Calzaghe had beaten him.

That right there is a pretty telling formline.

Now consider this - Has Froch ever been regarded as THE man at supermiddle? No. Was Calzaghe THE man at supermiddle? Yes.

So how has Froch eclipsed him? Not only does Calzaghe have the stronger form, albeit from a limit crop, he is also down in history as the TRUE champion of his division during his era.

Froch ain't eclipsed shit.

I don't think he's eclipsed him either. But he's clearly shown a lot more desire to fight tough opposition than Calzaghe ever did

Taking on Lacy (at the point where everybody thought Lacy was 'The Man') showed desire to fight tough opposition. Taking on Kessler, who was unbeaten and many peoples number 1 in the division showed desire to fight tough opposition. Going over to USA to fight Hopkins (a fight sandwiched by wins over Tarver, Wright and Pavlik, and still Hopkins last defeat and only defeat at 175) showed desire to fight tough opposition.

Fighting them eventually and actually wanting to fight them are 2 different things. Calzaghe almost seemed forced into his big fights. The Lacy fight was postponed twice. And many say the fight would of never happened if his dad didn't make him stick with it. The Kessler fight took forever to make. And was filled with all kinds of back and forth bullshit. The Hopkins fight wasn't as difficult to make cuz Hopkins went looking for him.

[RohanKnight]

Fighting them eventually and actually wanting to fight them are 2 different things. Calzaghe almost seemed forced into his big fights. The Lacy fight was postponed twice. And many say the fight would of never happened if his dad didn't make him stick with it. The Kessler fight took forever to make. And was filled with all kinds of back and forth bullshit. The Hopkins fight wasn't as difficult to make cuz Hopkins went looking for him.

he did however chase Sven Ottke incessantly. Joe was no coward -I would rather say that he was smart enough to know his limits, he knew there were some supermiddleweights around who would decision him by outboxing his slaprate and wouldnt be hurt by his decent power when he was younger.

This then is my issue with this thread - funny its called 'the best' when Joe himself clearly knew for a fact he WASNT the best supermiddleweight around. He did however become the MOST SUCCESSFUL one.

A great smart boxer (Hopsy) or a fast good/great boxer (RJJ) can outpoint a high output speed puncher (calzaghe style 1) or a fairly good boxer (Calzaghe style 2), though I doubt either of them would stop JC or hurt him, possibly just knock him down like they did when they were old.
Quite possible JC would have knocked down RJJ too when he was prime, he had good power.

[imp]

I agree with the below statement mentioned
"I have no problem with acknowledging that JC is the 3rd-5th best SM ever, behind Bhop, RJJ, Sugar Ray etc,"
As also said joes fitness was amazing and he was a great boxer but i still will never put him in front of the greatest and thats a prime RJJ.
joe and frank could have made a catchweight with him at anytime but he did not..RJJ was the best during these eras and easily played with future hall of famers hopkins and detroits finest james toney.

He took risks and went out of his comfort zone and weight class many times and proved he was a p4p
champ!
Joe was and is a great champion it definately proves that just cause your undefeated dont mean your the greatest..and that goes to floyd as well.
Long live RJJ, Ali and..and the best of all things british...nigel benn

[Dia bando]

What supermiddle had record like JC, well NONE RJJ B Hopp Kessler to name a few will never have a 46 AND 0 record and all 3 have been in with bum oppostion dont kid yourself. You could say Froch has been in with better oppostion look at his age he is geting on turning pro late 20's.So Carl has to get on with it time is not on his side. B Hopp is just a dirty fighter and he doe's come across as a A hole,i dont like the way he fight's.

[RohanKnight]

What supermiddle had record like JC, well NONE RJJ B Hopp Kessler to name a few will never have a 46 AND 0 record and all 3 have been in with bum oppostion dont kid yourself. You could say Froch has been in with better oppostion look at his age he is geting on turning pro late 20's.So Carl has to get on with it time is not on his side. B Hopp is just a dirty fighter and he doe's come across as a A hole,i dont like the way he fight's.

I think the record argument has been worn out. Rocky Marciano was 49-0 but hes not close to being the best heavyweight ever. Julio Cesar Chavez could have kept his record clean forever by fighting bums. Both great fighters though, as was JC.

There is always going to be that unknown factor about Joe, you can mount an argument for saying he was the best but didnt shine with the best prime which means just Kessler really. You can however mount that for several SMs, you can say equally that RJJ never reached his potential, even though what he reached was incredible, he could have gone beyond it with more commitment, you could see him reigning the SM division undefeated for decade if he'd had the desire. But even though there is much more talent west of the Atlantic by virtue of a sheer population difference focused on boxing, it never means that there arent individuals with that talent over in Britain. And one thing you have to admit about Joe C is that he desired to remain champion, to put in the slog for a decade, and that deserves respect, I wouldnt do it!

I dont think Froch comes into the argument of top SMs ever(as yet anyway), I dont know if it was me who mentioned him but sorry I did, I was only pointing out his resume is now better.

[Master]

I agree with the below statement mentioned
"I have no problem with acknowledging that JC is the 3rd-5th best SM ever, behind Bhop, RJJ, Sugar Ray etc,"
As also said joes fitness was amazing and he was a great boxer but i still will never put him in front of the greatest and thats a prime RJJ.
joe and frank could have made a catchweight with him at anytime but he did not..RJJ was the best during these eras and easily played with future hall of famers hopkins and detroits finest james toney.

He took risks and went out of his comfort zone and weight class many times and proved he was a p4p
champ!
Joe was and is a great champion it definately proves that just cause your undefeated dont mean your the greatest..and that goes to floyd as well.
Long live RJJ, Ali and..and the best of all things british...nigel benn

Sugar Ray Leonard was not a great super middleweight. He would have got beaten by Joe Galzaghe, Toney and Roy Jones.

[RohanKnight]

I agree with the below statement mentioned
"I have no problem with acknowledging that JC is the 3rd-5th best SM ever, behind Bhop, RJJ, Sugar Ray etc,"
As also said joes fitness was amazing and he was a great boxer but i still will never put him in front of the greatest and thats a prime RJJ.
joe and frank could have made a catchweight with him at anytime but he did not..RJJ was the best during these eras and easily played with future hall of famers hopkins and detroits finest james toney.

He took risks and went out of his comfort zone and weight class many times and proved he was a p4p
champ!
Joe was and is a great champion it definately proves that just cause your undefeated dont mean your the greatest..and that goes to floyd as well.
Long live RJJ, Ali and..and the best of all things british...nigel benn

Sugar Ray Leonard was not a great super middleweight. He would have got beaten by Joe Galzaghe, Toney and Roy Jones.

That was my post, not imps lol.
I acknowledge he would be giving up a lot to move up to SM, but he was a class act was Sugar, I dont think you can say all three would have beaten him, he would have decisioned one or two of them.

The difference being we know what Suagar Ray was capable of, but we dont know what JC could have done because he didnt do it.

[imp]

One thing i love about ricky hatton he wasnt afraid to go overseas to fight the best..in his prime.

[BIG H]

RJJ would've won nearly every round against JC IMO, but u can't say RJJ took risks with a straight face. Ruiz was a very calculated risk, other that what risks did he take? Going to Germany to fight Michaelchevski would've been a risk, but American fighters are immune for the criticism that British fighters are subject too, when not travelling to win or unify belts.

RJJ is top 10 p4p all time IMO, but a risk taker he was not and a good resume he does not have.

[JT Rock]

RJJ would've won nearly every round against JC IMO, but u can't say RJJ took risks with a straight face. Ruiz was a very calculated risk, other that what risks did he take? Going to Germany to fight Michaelchevski would've been a risk, but American fighters are immune for the criticism that British fighters are subject too, when not travelling to win or unify belts.

RJJ is top 10 p4p all time IMO, but a risk taker he was not and a good resume he does not have.

Joe was great in his own right and I refuse these days to rule him out against anybody in terms of a straight up matchup, Joe has the confidence and intangibles coupled with a ridiculous self belief. He had a decent chin and great work rate and that is a strong equalizer.

I wouldnt mind seeing Calzaghe these days if he was a few years younger

[FinitoElDinamita]

Kevin Mitchell

[imp]

I like your response big h..but when your at the top of tree any fight is a risk.
Rjj took far more risks than joe..multi weight divison champion..and p4p number one for numerous years.

[imp]

Hopkins, toney, harding, griffin,Johnson, ruiz etc..nah no risks
there..
Did joe even beat robin reid??
Sorry, joe dont do rematches!!?

[BIG H]

I genuinely don't think JC's resume is any worse than B-Hop's (20 defences at MW) or RJJ's, fact is none if them ever went into a fight that they were expected to lose ( except maybe JC vs Kessler and Lacy)

[imp]

Jc is def a pure boxer and a great one at that and would compete in any era!
I just think he is 2nd to roy..a great 2nd.