Hattons Prime - The myth

[Fenster]

Cotto is definitely not world-class if Hatton isn't.

His best wins are an old Mosley and Judah. Mosley wasn't P4P rated at the time because he was past his best. Judah was annihilated by a Hatton VICTIM.

Common opponents? Pac, Maussa and Powderpuff Paulie. Both were knocked out by Pac. Both stopped Maussa. Cotto struggles for a PTS win against Powderpuff. Hatton smashes him to bits for a stoppage win.

Hatton rates ABOVE Cotto on all known formlines that are not prejudiced by nation bias. Fact.


(Hatton and Cotto NOT world-class )

[TitoFan]

Cotto is definitely not world-class if Hatton isn't.

His best wins are an old Mosley and Judah. Mosley wasn't P4P rated at the time because he was past his best. Judah was annihilated by a Hatton VICTIM.

Common opponents? Pac, Maussa and Powderpuff Paulie. Both were knocked out by Pac. Both stopped Maussa. Cotto struggles for a PTS win against Powderpuff. Hatton smashes him to bits for a stoppage win.

Hatton rates ABOVE Cotto on all known formlines that are not prejudiced by nation bias. Fact.


(Hatton and Cotto NOT world-class )

Are you serious?!? But of course you are... you're Fenster.
Let's take a gander, shall we? Let's see... let's list the opponents (worthy) of each.

Hatton (nothing of note prior to Tszyu)

Tszyu - (good victory, although one has to wonder what if the ref hadn't allowed the mauling)
Maussa - (junk)
Collazo - (most observers had Collazo winning... gift for Hatton)
Urango - (yeah, ok)
Castillo - (a weight-drained, pathetic shell of his former self)
Floyd - (boxing lesson for Hatton)
Lazcano - (yeah, whatever)
Paulie - (good, credible opponent)
PAC - (need we go there?)

Cotto

Cesar Bazan - (good, worthy opponent... tough fighter in the Mexican mold)
"Rocky" Martinez - (later to become world champ)
Maussa - (junk)
Lovemore Ndou - (one of many fighters Cotto faced that were not sought after by other fighters)
Abdullaev - (ditto)
Ricardo Torres - (feared puncher)
Paulie - (good, credible opponent)
Quintana - (world champion at the time, victory over Paul Williams)
Judah - (don't see Judah on Hatton's list)
Mosley - (couldn't have been too washed up... he later destroyed Margarito)
Margacheato - (cheating asshole)
Clottey - (nobody likes facing him either)
PAC - (yeah, he lost to him too)
Foreman - (Cotto goes up to 154)
Mayorga - (feared puncher, if a little over-the-hill)

.....and I forgot to mention Randall Bailey, who wasn't half bad. Or Corley, for that matter.

Now tell me, Fenster... do you still rate Ricky over Cotto?
Seems to me you're the biased one here.
FACT

[miron_lang]

on being world class : I think Hatton is world class.

he was between #8 and #10 Ring P4P prior to facing Pacquiao

he's in the level of Ray Mancini in terms of being effective as a professional fighter IMO.

[ono]

Cotto is definitely not world-class if Hatton isn't.

His best wins are an old Mosley and Judah. Mosley wasn't P4P rated at the time because he was past his best. Judah was annihilated by a Hatton VICTIM.

Common opponents? Pac, Maussa and Powderpuff Paulie. Both were knocked out by Pac. Both stopped Maussa. Cotto struggles for a PTS win against Powderpuff. Hatton smashes him to bits for a stoppage win.

Hatton rates ABOVE Cotto on all known formlines that are not prejudiced by nation bias. Fact.


(Hatton and Cotto NOT world-class )

Are you serious?!? But of course you are... you're Fenster.
Let's take a gander, shall we? Let's see... let's list the opponents (worthy) of each.

Hatton (nothing of note prior to Tszyu)

Tszyu - (good victory, although one has to wonder what if the ref hadn't allowed the mauling)
Maussa - (junk)
Collazo - (most observers had Collazo winning... gift for Hatton)
Urango - (yeah, ok)
Castillo - (a weight-drained, pathetic shell of his former self)
Floyd - (boxing lesson for Hatton)
Lazcano - (yeah, whatever)
Paulie - (good, credible opponent)
PAC - (need we go there?)

Cotto

Cesar Bazan - (good, worthy opponent... tough fighter in the Mexican mold)
"Rocky" Martinez - (later to become world champ)
Maussa - (junk)
Lovemore Ndou - (one of many fighters Cotto faced that were not sought after by other fighters)
Abdullaev - (ditto)
Ricardo Torres - (feared puncher)
Paulie - (good, credible opponent)
Quintana - (world champion at the time, victory over Paul Williams)
Judah - (don't see Judah on Hatton's list)
Mosley - (couldn't have been too washed up... he later destroyed Margarito)
Margacheato - (cheating asshole)
Clottey - (nobody likes facing him either)
PAC - (yeah, he lost to him too)
Foreman - (Cotto goes up to 154)
Mayorga - (feared puncher, if a little over-the-hill)

.....and I forgot to mention Randall Bailey, who wasn't half bad. Or Corley, for that matter.

Now tell me, Fenster... do you still rate Ricky over Cotto?
Seems to me you're the biased one here.
FACT

Cotto is/was more skilled than Hatton. But i agree with Fenster. Resume wise, you can't really split them.

Cotto has more solid wins but none of them match Hatton - Tszyu. I think people's perception on how Hatton beat Tszyu has changed over time. Both fighters were guilty of rough-housing.

Cotto has wasted too much time (at his peak) figting guys like Jennings, Urkal and Gomez. He's also been close to being ko'd by supposedly lesser fighters (Corley, Torres). Of course Cotto is still active so he time on his side, but i don't see how you can really seperate their resumes.

[Gandalf]

I like the gist of Fenster's arguments, in terms of opposition Cotto isn't all that and he has lost his biggest fights too.

[Fenster]

TitoFan...

1. I never said I rate Hatton over Cotto. I said certain formlines point to Hatton being above Cotto. Therefore it is ridiculous to state one is world-class but the other not.

2. Your breakdown of their resumes is ridiculous. First off - "Hatton beat nobody of note before Tsyzu?" Yet you list Rocky Martinez to highlight Cotto's resume. The SAME Martinez that had already been beat by Stephen Smith - A Hatton VICTIM!!! So how come Hatton beat "no-one of note" but Cotto is credited for beating victims of Hatton's VICTIMS!!! That is utterly pathetic.

Bazan and N'Dou? Beat by Hatton VICTIMS!!! You don't see Judah on Hatton's resume because guess what? He was DESTROYED by a Hatton VICTIM!!!

Quintana, Clottey and Foreman are no better than Urango and Collazo (top 10 alphabet holders). Mayorga? "A little over the hill?" But Castillo was a "pathetic shell." Laughable.

Just face the facts. They have three common opponents with the same results. Lots of Cotto's best wins were against men who lost to fighters Hatton beat. Cotto may have faced the quantity but Hatton the quality. They were both P4P rated in their pomp. Both multi-weight "world champions" (Hatton being the only legit/lineal one).

If Hatton isn't world-class neither is Cotto. Fact.

[Mattyhitman]

TitoFan...

1. I never said I rate Cotto over Hatton. I said certain formlines point to Hatton being above Cotto. Therefore it is ridiculous to state one is world-class but the other not.

2. Your breakdown of their resumes is ridiculous. First off - "Hatton beat nobody of note before Tsyzu?" Yet you list Rocky Martinez to highlight Cotto's resume. The SAME Martinez that had already been beat by Stephen Smith - A Hatton VICTIM!!! So how come Hatton beat "no-one of note" but Cotto is credited for beating victims of Hatton's VICTIMS!!! That is utterly pathetic.

Bazan and N'Dou? Beat by Hatton VICTIMS!!! You don't see Judah on Hatton's resume because guess what? He was DESTROYED by a Hatton VICTIM!!!

Quintana, Clottey and Foreman are no better than Urango and Collazo (top 10 alphabet holders). Mayorga? "A little over the hill?" But Castillo was a "pathetic shell." Laughable.

Just face the facts. They have three common opponents with the same results. Lots of Cotto's best wins were against men who lost to fighters Hatton beat. Cotto may have faced the quantity but Hatton the quality. They were both P4P rated in their pomp. Both multi-weight "world champions" (Hatton being the only legit/lineal one).

If Hatton isn't world-class neither is Cotto. Fact.

Titofan, you have just been taken to school

One thing I would add, and this has been mentioned by Ono, the one stand-out name and victory on Hatton's resume eclipses anything on Cotto's, and that's Kostya. Cotto cannot claim the same scalp on his.

[Gandalf]

Totally, that was an outstanding post by Fenster. Full kudos to the man here as I can't seem to bloody rep anyone.

For anyone to suggest that Hatton was less than world class is just so wrong on every level. The man was outstanding but just a few rungs short of the super elite. But so was Miguel Cotto, so what is being argued here exactly?

[ono]

TitoFan...

1. I never said I rate Cotto over Hatton. I said certain formlines point to Hatton being above Cotto. Therefore it is ridiculous to state one is world-class but the other not.

2. Your breakdown of their resumes is ridiculous. First off - "Hatton beat nobody of note before Tsyzu?" Yet you list Rocky Martinez to highlight Cotto's resume. The SAME Martinez that had already been beat by Stephen Smith - A Hatton VICTIM!!! So how come Hatton beat "no-one of note" but Cotto is credited for beating victims of Hatton's VICTIMS!!! That is utterly pathetic.

Bazan and N'Dou? Beat by Hatton VICTIMS!!! You don't see Judah on Hatton's resume because guess what? He was DESTROYED by a Hatton VICTIM!!!

Quintana, Clottey and Foreman are no better than Urango and Collazo (top 10 alphabet holders). Mayorga? "A little over the hill?" But Castillo was a "pathetic shell." Laughable.

Just face the facts. They have three common opponents with the same results. Lots of Cotto's best wins were against men who lost to fighters Hatton beat. Cotto may have faced the quantity but Hatton the quality. They were both P4P rated in their pomp. Both multi-weight "world champions" (Hatton being the only legit/lineal one).

If Hatton isn't world-class neither is Cotto. Fact.

15-0

[Snakey]

I always thought Hatton and Cotto would of been a good fight while it lasted. Probably wouldnt last long....but would of been entertaining.

[TitoFan]

TitoFan...

1. I never said I rate Hatton over Cotto. I said certain formlines point to Hatton being above Cotto. Therefore it is ridiculous to state one is world-class but the other not.

2. Your breakdown of their resumes is ridiculous. First off - "Hatton beat nobody of note before Tsyzu?" Yet you list Rocky Martinez to highlight Cotto's resume. The SAME Martinez that had already been beat by Stephen Smith - A Hatton VICTIM!!! So how come Hatton beat "no-one of note" but Cotto is credited for beating victims of Hatton's VICTIMS!!! That is utterly pathetic.

Bazan and N'Dou? Beat by Hatton VICTIMS!!! You don't see Judah on Hatton's resume because guess what? He was DESTROYED by a Hatton VICTIM!!!

Quintana, Clottey and Foreman are no better than Urango and Collazo (top 10 alphabet holders). Mayorga? "A little over the hill?" But Castillo was a "pathetic shell." Laughable.

Just face the facts. They have three common opponents with the same results. Lots of Cotto's best wins were against men who lost to fighters Hatton beat. Cotto may have faced the quantity but Hatton the quality. They were both P4P rated in their pomp. Both multi-weight "world champions" (Hatton being the only legit/lineal one).

If Hatton isn't world-class neither is Cotto. Fact.

I've gotten a lot of flak on this one, as I expected... this being a British forum and all. But ok... maybe I went a bit far back on Cotto's resume. Let's forget the Bazans and the Martinez's. Let's pick it up at Abdullaev. I still maintain that Cotto's list is more impressive than Hatton's. And I still maintain that after Tszyu, Hatton's record isn't very impressive at all. You had no answer for Collazo, against whom Hatton was GIVEN a decision. I won't dump too much on Urango, which I didn't before either. But Castillo? C'mon... TELL me that wasn't a pathetic shell of the former Castillo. He didn't even LOOK ready to fight that night. After that came two thrashings by Mayweather and Pac, sandwiched around fights against the "great" Lazcano (who?), and Malignaggi.

I still don't see how that list stacks against the likes of Torres, Quintana, Judah, Mosley, Clottey, and Mayorga. And this crap about Judah and others being beaten by Hatton victims. C'mon... you know better than that. If there's any sport where algebra doesn't apply, it's boxing. A>B, and B>C, so automatically A>C? I don't think so. Go ask Ali, Foreman, and Frazier.

Judah may be a "gatekeeper" now. But back then, he was Cotto's biggest test to date. Judah was still, well... Judah. Mosley I shouldn't even have to defend. After he lost to Cotto, he kicked the stuffing out of Margarito. That he's now washed up and afraid to pull the trigger? (see Mayweather fight). Yeah, so what?

Boxing (and boxers) is a matter of eras, of timeframes. I'll give you Mayorga. He definitely WAS a bit over-the-hill when he fought Cotto. But none of what you've said before makes Hatton's resume better than Cotto's. Nothing.

And ok... I can't claim Cotto is world-class while Hatton is not. It's not that clear cut. But I will tell you this... I always hoped that Cotto and Hatton would've met, especially at 147. It would've NOT been a pretty sight. Except rather than get embarrassed like against Floyd... or annihilated, like against Pac... it would've been a systematic, painful dismantling that would've put to rest once and for all any doubts about Cotto being better than Hatton.

Oh... and by the way... Cotto has never claimed to be fighting for the world's p4p, unlike the delusional Ricky.

[Mattyhitman]

TitoFan...

1. I never said I rate Hatton over Cotto. I said certain formlines point to Hatton being above Cotto. Therefore it is ridiculous to state one is world-class but the other not.

2. Your breakdown of their resumes is ridiculous. First off - "Hatton beat nobody of note before Tsyzu?" Yet you list Rocky Martinez to highlight Cotto's resume. The SAME Martinez that had already been beat by Stephen Smith - A Hatton VICTIM!!! So how come Hatton beat "no-one of note" but Cotto is credited for beating victims of Hatton's VICTIMS!!! That is utterly pathetic.

Bazan and N'Dou? Beat by Hatton VICTIMS!!! You don't see Judah on Hatton's resume because guess what? He was DESTROYED by a Hatton VICTIM!!!

Quintana, Clottey and Foreman are no better than Urango and Collazo (top 10 alphabet holders). Mayorga? "A little over the hill?" But Castillo was a "pathetic shell." Laughable.

Just face the facts. They have three common opponents with the same results. Lots of Cotto's best wins were against men who lost to fighters Hatton beat. Cotto may have faced the quantity but Hatton the quality. They were both P4P rated in their pomp. Both multi-weight "world champions" (Hatton being the only legit/lineal one).

If Hatton isn't world-class neither is Cotto. Fact.

Oh... and by the way... Cotto has never claimed to be fighting for the world's p4p, unlike the delusional Ricky.

Maybe because Cotto was never considered the Kingpin at any weight he fought at, and held titles in two weight divisions simutaneously

[Fenster]

Tito...

British forum? There's more people from stateside than Brits on here. The thread starter is an Aussie. This argument has nothing to do with nationality though.

Hatton is world-class because of bombproof solid facts. The Ring magazine is an American publication. HBO/Showtime are American companies. The Boxing Writers Association of America is clearly not a load of bias British journalists (check out the company he is in - BWAA Awards History)

Hatton was honoured and rated by these because he proved to be a world-class fighter. Simple as.

Collazo? Your personal opinion that he was robbed means nothing. Hatton got the decision in a close fight. It happens every week. Just because the guy you think won didn't, doesn't make it a robbery.

Cotto-Hatton fight? I would probably pick Cotto. But that is irrelevant here.

Hatton victims? What it proves is Hatton was fighting amongst the same pool of fighters Cotto was, with the same success. Cotto beat N'dou. Paulie beat N'dou. Hatton beat Paulie. If N'dou had beat Paulie, Hatton would have fought him. So at the very least Hatton is operating in the same class. Not everyone can fight everyone.

If you personally don't like Hatton, think he's overrated and his resume isn't very impressive that's fine. What you can't do is just ignore/dismiss the fact he was a proven, decorated world-class fighter in his pomp. And "Brit hype" had nothing to do with it

[Mattyhitman]

Tito...

British forum? There's more people from stateside than Brits on here. The thread starter is an Aussie. This argument has nothing to do with nationality though.

Hatton is world-class because of bombproof solid facts. The Ring magazine is an American publication. HBO/Showtime are American companies. The Boxing Writers Association of America is clearly not a load of bias British journalists (check out the company he is in - BWAA Awards History)

Hatton was honoured and rated by these because he proved to be a world-class fighter. Simple as.

Collazo? Your personal opinion that he was robbed means nothing. Hatton got the decision in a close fight. It happens every week. Just because the guy you think won didn't, doesn't make it a robbery.

Cotto-Hatton fight? I would probably pick Cotto. But that is irrelevant here.

Hatton victims? What it proves is Hatton was fighting amongst the same pool of fighters Cotto was, with the same success. Cotto beat N'dou. Paulie beat N'dou. Hatton beat Paulie. If N'dou had beat Paulie, Hatton would have fought him. So at the very least Hatton is operating in the same class. Not everyone can fight everyone.

If you personally don't like Hatton, think he's overrated and his resume isn't very impressive that's fine. What you can't do is just ignore/dismiss the fact he was a proven, decorated world-class fighter in his pomp. And "Brit hype" had nothing to do with it

30-0

[TitoFan]

Tito...

British forum? There's more people from stateside than Brits on here. The thread starter is an Aussie. This argument has nothing to do with nationality though.

Hatton is world-class because of bombproof solid facts. The Ring magazine is an American publication. HBO/Showtime are American companies. The Boxing Writers Association of America is clearly not a load of bias British journalists (check out the company he is in - BWAA Awards History)

Hatton was honoured and rated by these because he proved to be a world-class fighter. Simple as.

Collazo? Your personal opinion that he was robbed means nothing. Hatton got the decision in a close fight. It happens every week. Just because the guy you think won didn't, doesn't make it a robbery.

Cotto-Hatton fight? I would probably pick Cotto. But that is irrelevant here.

Hatton victims? What it proves is Hatton was fighting amongst the same pool of fighters Cotto was, with the same success. Cotto beat N'dou. Paulie beat N'dou. Hatton beat Paulie. If N'dou had beat Paulie, Hatton would have fought him. So at the very least Hatton is operating in the same class. Not everyone can fight everyone.

If you personally don't like Hatton, think he's overrated and his resume isn't very impressive that's fine. What you can't do is just ignore/dismiss the fact he was a proven, decorated world-class fighter in his pomp. And "Brit hype" had nothing to do with it

You chose to ignore my second, detailed "go-round" of Cotto's and Hatton's opponents, and concentrated instead on magazine rankings (which we all know can be flawed), and boxing algebra logic. Meanwhile, you've got your "ballboys" (and I mean that literally, as well as figuratively) keeping score. What up, kids? Gotta hide behind daddy's underpants?

If it was VD in here spouting obscenities and insulting you guys, not a whimper would be heard. But since it's me in here, just expressing my honest opinion, it becomes a feeding frenzy. At least we agree on the results of a Cotto-Hatton fight.

I've got nothing against Hatton. For a while, he was actually pretty good for boxing. It stirred up a nation of boxing fans who, frankly, its world-class champions come few and far between. And that's always good. Anything that stirs up interest in boxing is good with me. I'll say this: I've never seen fans from any other country board airplanes by the hundreds and fly halfway across the world to watch their native son fight. Now THAT'S impressive.

My beef with Hatton was that all the hype got to his head. And IMO, he got what was coming to him when he faced Floyd and Pacquiao. World's p4p my ass. And now... I just feel sorry that's he's come to such depths in his life, and hope he straightens his shit out.

Oh..........

30-40...... game, set, match