Re: Do you ever doubt God's existence?

[Kev]

"There is however a large number of secular theologians and biblical scholars (including me) who've found "Jesus" to be historically non-existent." What exactly is a large number? Whatever that number is, is it also safe to say that an even larger number believe him to have actually existed? I'm no self proclaimed expert on this topic but it would seem that if more secular theologians and biblical scholars believed that then it would be a more widely held belief versus a small percentage and even more so in the intellectual circles. I'm agnostic and have done a fair amount of reading from both sides of the street on Christianity and Jesus particularly and can't say I've read a book from the secular side denying he even existed. I've read a lot with differing opinions on the details and timeline of his life but none that out and out denied him to even have existed. To believe he never lived is to then believe that he was created by a group of people as a imaginary figure head that then spawned one of the largest religions in history. More so that the authors of all the letters written to the different churches of the day chronicling his life were complicit in the fraud. I think it is rather easy to dismiss a man for the lack of record of his life when his familiarity came well after his death. Not to mention its not like we can head over to a public records depository from 2k years ago and furthermore that there is no records of probably more 99% of the people that lived and died during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. Dismissing the beliefs of the Muslim and Jewish religions acknowledgement of Jesus as simply a popularity vote fails to take into account that they more than anyone would benefit from factual proof that he never walked this Earth and state it daily. IMHO it almost takes more of a degree of faith to believe that the man that spawned one of the largest religions in the world was actually just a conspiracy created by a group of people than to even acknowledge he did in fact walk this Earth at one point.

Charlie, my argument is, there's virtually no secular historical evidence confirming that the jesus depicted in the "gospels" and/or New Testament is anything other than a fabricated character in a religious text/novel. Frankly, I couldn't give a fuck less, what christians, muslims, jews, or anyone else chooses to believe, I don't buy any of that bullshit.

What kind of evidence would convince you though?

It's an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again. So strong was their belief in having witnessed this they happily went to their deaths, being stoned, crucifed, ripped apart by horses and suffering other unimaginable tortures, in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus' death and resurrection.

The fact that the Christian church exists IS proof that Jesus existed. If he didn't, why did his followers all die for this belief?

It's a truly baffling anti religious mindset that tries to deny something that clearly happened as the historical ramifications were immense.

It's as absurd as suggesting William the Conqueror never existed and trying to explain the Battle of Hastings without him.

You simply cannot reasonably argue the birth of the church, under the most intense persecution and in the most violent manner, without accepting they had a founder.

People throughout history have been willing to die for all manner of bizarre beliefs this does not lead any credence to their beliefs only to their misplaced sincerity. In fact it does not even prove all of their sincerity, some could well be fabricated accounts as are many of the myths relating to the martyrdom of saints. Many Pagans, Jews, Muslims and Atheists have been tortured, skinned alive, burnt and murdered BY Christians, does that mean all their beliefs are grounded in historically irrefutable truths? The true birth of the Christian church happened under the Roman emperor Constantine 300 years after the death of Jesus. The kind of evidence that would convince non-believers would be non-biblical and around the time of Jesus life not 30 years after his death. There is plenty of historical evidence that William the Conqueror existed including eyewitness accounts written while he was alive, whereas the evidence for Jesus is all written by those attaching themselves to his cult and writing years after his death. Through various accounts we have a very clear picture of why the Battle of Hastings occurred unlike the disciples who can not agree on many of the simple details that supposedly happened to Jesus.

Tell us a few then. What other massive worldwide faiths and movements have people sacrificed themselves to proclaim that were founded on absolutely nothing at all?

Please tell me the scenario of how this worked. Ok, so Jesus didn't exist. He never was. So why did he have followers? Or did his first followers not exist either?

It's a completely ludicrous logic you are using. Anyway, as you said above, this kind of worldwide faith movement without a founder happens all the time so just remind me of the other ones.

Why did Tacitus a Roman Historian, and Josephus, a Jew mention this non existant man in their works?