
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Bilbo
The new testament accounts of Jesus are in no way to be taken as an indication that such a character did indeed exist. It is quite plausible to suggest that even the so called, historical figure, to which you refer can be dismissed as allegorical or composite in a time full of would be Messiahs. This is still the case if you dismiss his claims of divinity. Everything we know about such a disputed figure is clearly a reflection of the individual Gospel writers own personality, it is why they can never agree. He is a synthetic construct like “Uncle Sam”, “King Arthur” or “Robin Hood”. This post Jesus invocation of a God like figure is entirely reconcilable with both Judeo- Roman Culture and Hellenistic Judaism. In fact the idea of a dying then rising deity can be traced back to Egyptian times, a culture that left it’s mark all over Judaism. Archaeology has uncovered real evidence that the great monotheistic mother religion of Judaism, was not practised by the original Israelites, whose belief system seems to not be to different from the other polytheistic practices of it’s neighbours. So again even the Old Testament’s credibility in historical matters has to be questioned.
Bilbo by your ludicrous logic every faith, ideologicical belief, cult, or movement, need only produce numerous martyrs to establish their authenticity. People are willing to die for an idea. You do not need an historical figure to establish a cult you can base it on any number of things because people WANT to believe. On the one hand you say you are not discussing the divinity of Christ and then you describe him as a healer of the sick and refer to his crucifixion and rising from the dead. What is it then? Who is this Jesus of whom you speak? Socrates, and William the Conqueror never claimed to be divine, they never claimed to be no part of this world, it is this crucial distinction that reveals your ignorance. You can not believe in the historical Jesus and then dismiss all the claims to divinity that he and his followers made. It is what identifies him, it is what makes him Jesus. If he was lying and his followers were lying then obviously his and his followers words are not to be trusted, and we can not ever really know who this Jesus is, or indeed if he ever existed. Maybe you should take a leaf out of Socrates book, and accept that all we really know, is that we are ignorant. This is the philosophical foundation on which education is built.
Idiotic conclusions and retarded arguments aside, your argument that the Gospels are history that could not possibly made up and retroactively transplanted back in time, because people 50 years later would remember them, betrays your own reliance on the gospels as an historically accurate record of what happened. This tenuous reasoning also relies on a previously different world with no written records and just people’s memories and word of mouth being suddenly supplanted by a literate populace avidly reading the Gospel accounts and disputing their content. Why do the Jewish people have to collude in what you so unwittingly accurately refer to as “this grand delusion”. The Gospels were not like the local newspaper, it wasn’t 2011, like you said, “no tv, no radio, no written records”.
Only in the mind of a believer can “it not be seriously debated that he didn’t exist at all.” No offence of course. How can the claim that people invented Jesus be more absurd than the claim that he performed miracles and was killed and raised again? You do not have to convince people in the region at that time,that Jesus walked amongst them, and performed these feats, because the Christian church didn’t start till 300 years later and the Gospels regular use came even later and further away from Galilee. It also supposes on your part, that the Jewish/Roman culture of the time was unable to understand allegory and parables and that the Judeo Hellenic culture that followed was similarly simplistic.
Suicide bombers, people who crash planes into buildings, The Mooneys suicide cult, David Kouresh and his followers, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Scientology, etc, etc these are all examples of movements built on illogical, mythical gibberish, and ideological scenarios with no basis in fact. Josephus and Tacitus are sources from decades and centuries later and are akin to saying, because there are two pins in the haystack there must be a magnet underneath it. There is also the small matter of you claiming that “It’s an historical fact that enough people believed not only that Jesus did exist, but that they also saw him killed and then raised again.” This was your opening salvo in your response to Mars claim, that Jesus was a fictive character, and yet this is not confirmed by Josephus or Tacitus. Only the New Testament claims this and yet you say that the argument is not about the divinity of Jesus, but about his existence in history. The thread is about doubting God’s existence and you have not made it clear what you think on the matter. You have just took pot shots at peoples arguments and went on about your knowing Jewish history whilst referring to the New Testament. Are you a Jew or Christian?
Or are you agnostic ? Just curious.
Finally Pacfan now you have fulfilled your God fantasy and have everyone dancing at the end of your strings like some giant puppet master, do you think you can engage in conversation and not preach to us like some omniscient guru?
Bookmarks