Sugar Ray Robinson 169 Vs Rocky Marciano 188

[IamInuit]

I don’t think he batters Ray at all and would probably think he was fighting a crowd. The speed difference would be out of this world. Marciano was 5 11 with a 67 inch reach. Robinson was 5 11 with a 73 inch reach. I’m not convinced Marciano would be able to lay a glove on him. Greb beat Tunney arguably twice along with several contending heavyweights. Greb was not a big middleweight. Ketchel was giving Johnson all he could handle and was outweighed by about 40 pounds. And what of Langford? He made a living out of fighting guys twice his size.

If a smaller more agile guy was going to beat Rocky wouldn't Ezzard Charles have done it? Plus Gene Tunney was a light heavyweight and he beat Greb and Ketchel & Johnson had a deal to go X number of rounds because of film rights or some such nonsense at the time. When Ketchel blasted Johnson and Johnson got back up, Ketchel got decked and eventually woke back up minus a few teeth so let's not get carried away here

Who's getting carried away. I simply said that Marciano beating Ray is not a forgone conclusion. Charles did pound him splitting his nose in two and Ray was leaner and faster then Charles. That film right claim is bogus. Greb fought Tunney 5 times and the point about Ketchel was to show that much smaller men fought much larger men all the time and especially in the original 8. P4p actually meant something in those days. Whats getting carried away is the suggestion that Robinson would not have a chance when the exact same thing involving other fighters has played out numerous times over history and ftr Marciano was no bigger then Tunney

[El Kabong]

Carmen Basilio beat Ray Robinson and narrowly lost to him as well....would that not add support to the "Marciano would demolish Robinson" argument?

[IamInuit]

Pender beat Robinson and so did Turpin. Lamotta beat him the first time they fought. These fights have little or nothing to do with a Marciano match-up

[El Kabong]

Pender beat Robinson and so did Turpin. Lamotta beat him the first time they fought. These fights have little or nothing to do with a Marciano match-up

They have plenty to do with it because Basillio was small for a middleweight and he out hustled and out muscled the bigger stronger Robinson....granted Gene Fullmer was felled by SRR and he was more of a bruiser, but Rocky was bigger & stronger and punched a hell of a lot harder 49 wins 43 KO's 100% of them at heavyweight. Now if we said Spinks vs Rokcy or Bob Foster or Dick Tiger or Holyfield or Qawi or Bert Cooper then it's on more even terms for a matchup with Rocky, but Robinson?!?!? COME ON MAN!

[Master]

It is true if Ezzard Charles could not do it SRR could not either. It is simple genetics. SRR struggled at light heavy, he is naturally smaller. He would not be able to take Rocky;s punches for too long.

[IamInuit]

There is nothing simple about it. You cant just claim someone beats someone cause they have a few pounds on them. 169 vs 188 is not insurmountable odds and its foolish to think it is. Burley pounded guys way bigger then him and as stated earlier Langford made a career out of it but never mind the facts.

[Master]

There is nothing simple about it. You cant just claim someone beats someone cause they have a few pounds on them. 169 vs 188 is not insurmountable odds and its foolish to think it is. Burley pounded guys way bigger then him and as stated earlier Langford made a career out of it but never mind the facts.

If Ezzard Charles or even Jersey Joe Walcott, who were quality boxers, could not do it then how could SRR?

[El Kabong]

There is nothing simple about it. You cant just claim someone beats someone cause they have a few pounds on them. 169 vs 188 is not insurmountable odds and its foolish to think it is. Burley pounded guys way bigger then him and as stated earlier Langford made a career out of it but never mind the facts.

the point I'm making is that you say skill is a bigger part of who wins and who loses, but I've listed Basillio as a guy who although less skilled and smaller than SRR beat him and fought him tooth and nail in a rematch and if Basillio can do that Marciano would crush Robinson.

I just see it the way I see it and that's all. When Ray was 169 he was not in the prime of his career anyway

[IamInuit]

I already said that Pender, Lamotta and Turpin beat him so skill does not always win. I never said Ray wins. I said its not a forgone conclusion that Marciano does

If you think Ray gets smoked that's your opinion and I simply do not share that view. I think its just as possible that Robinson wins on points. I've already named guys who fought at a greater size disparity then this hypothetical so people can draw their own conclusions on this style match up.

[SRR]

There is nothing simple about it. You cant just claim someone beats someone cause they have a few pounds on them. 169 vs 188 is not insurmountable odds and its foolish to think it is. Burley pounded guys way bigger then him and as stated earlier Langford made a career out of it but never mind the facts.

the point I'm making is that you say skill is a bigger part of who wins and who loses, but I've listed Basillio as a guy who although less skilled and smaller than SRR beat him and fought him tooth and nail in a rematch and if Basillio can do that Marciano would crush Robinson.

I just see it the way I see it and that's all. When Ray was 169 he was not in the prime of his career anyway

I don't know why you're using the Basilio fights as markers when Ray fought Basilio in 57/58, a good 5-6 years out of his prime, having taken two years off to go into showbiz. In his prime he was only beaten by LaMotta who outweighed him by more than 2kgs on the night and had arguably one of the greatest chins in boxing history. It's clear simply from looking at SRR's record after his return from hiatus that he was a shadow of his former self:his reflexes, footwork and handspeed had all declined considerably and were only getting worse with each fight, and with the speed went much of his power. So he had to work a lot harder to outbox an opponent and had less chance of causing them trouble with power shots. Have you seen what Ray did to Basilio's eye in the 2nd fight? A prime SRR would have destroyed Basilio, and probably taken him out somewhere in the late rounds. As for this discussion, SRR fought Maxim at a weight Maxim was obviously far more comfortable at and was winning an absolute landslide on the scorecards before he collapsed from heat exhaustion. The fight was held outside in over 100 degree heat and the only man who beat Robinson that day was himself - Maxim never laid a glove on him. So to the question of who would win this proposed fight: it's really very difficult to say, since Marciano weighed more than Maxim and was a much better boxer. Certainly in his prime, with one of the best chins ever, I would give SRR a chance of beating Marciano on points, dancing his way to victory and putting on a boxiing masterclass in the process, but the likelihood is that Ray's power would not have troubled Marciano in the same way it troubled fighters at welter and middleweight, and Ray would have found himself very much on the back foot, at which point knocking out a heavyweight becomes an impossible task. Thus, with nothing to worry about going forward, the probability is that Marciano would have rushed him and thrown bombs until one found its mark and ended the fight.

[El Kabong]

If Robinson was effective at the higher weight classes don't you think he would have tried to win the titles up there?

The heat didn't seem to bother Maxim when they fought...one would think more heat would play to the smaller guy's advantage