A Tale of Two Sons of Great Fighters

[hardcore_crash]

At they end of the day is when it's going to count.
I believe Chavez Jr. Is going to have a great career, though I admit I don't like some of the things surrounding it at this moment.
I do believe Chavez Jr will fight better opponents he is already lined up to fight the P4P #3 fighter, so I'm not sure what this is about?
While Wilfredo Jr. got handled by Arce, who is shot and thought about retirement multiple times.
I'm not sure when Vazquez Jr. got to the level?
Sure Arce is a great fighter, not as much as when he was prime, but what about Martinez? What is he?

[TitoFan]

At they end of the day is when it's going to count.
I believe Chavez Jr. Is going to have a great career, though I admit I don't like some of the things surrounding it at this moment.
I do believe Chavez Jr will fight better opponents he is already lined up to fight the P4P #3 fighter, so I'm not sure what this is about?
While Wilfredo Jr. got handled by Arce, who is shot and thought about retirement multiple times.
I'm not sure when Vazquez Jr. got to the level?
Sure Arce is a great fighter, not as much as when he was prime, but what about Martinez? What is he?

First there's no way Chavez's opponents stack up against Vazquez's opponents... even considering Chavez has twice as many fights as Vazquez. If you look at where Chavez was in terms of opponents back when he was at 20-some fights.... the list was so bad it was pitiful. Next, I do believe Chavez has improved..... how could he not? And Martinez will be the first honest-to-goodness great fighter Chavez will have faced. Let's hope there's no "I can't provide a piss sample" controversies surrounding THIS fight.

As for Vazquez, he was more than holding his own against Arce when finally stopped late in the fight. Rather than discredit Vazquez, Arce should be credited for pulling out another great fight to add to his great career. Vazquez then faced and lost a decision to Nonito Donaire, who is merely LIGHT-YEARS ahead of anybody Chavez has ever faced. And now he's going to face Rafael Marquez.

I'm sorry, but I stand even more by my assessment.

[hardcore_crash]

Yes, at this point he has faced better competition.
But I believe, I could be wrong though, that at the end of the day Chavez will have the better career. Not because of Chavez Sr is his dad or Sulaiman is "The Godfather", but because he took the time to learn how to fight , get in proper shape, and fill in to his body before facing top p4p fighters.
Not everyone is Canelo and can fight all these top guys at such a young age.
If Vazquez Jr., who is his adivser, wants to throw him in to the wolves before he was ready that's fine.
Vargas already got his ass beat by Trinidad before he was ready, and where is he now?
He faced top guys but lost to much of them.
In a few years Chavez Jr might still be fighting top guys and Vazquez Jr. Is going to be the kid who got thrown in to the wolves by his advisor.

And no Chavez wouldn't have been able to hang with someone like Martinez when he had 20 fights, but who would honestly expect him to? As soon as he became the 160 WBC champ is when it matters who and when he fights them.

[TitoFan]

Yes, at this point he has faced better competition.
But I believe, I could be wrong though, that at the end of the day Chavez will have the better career. Not because of Chavez Sr is his dad or Sulaiman is "The Godfather", but because he took the time to learn how to fight , get in proper shape, and fill in to his body before facing top p4p fighters.
Not everyone is Canelo and can fight all these top guys at such a young age.
If Vazquez Jr., who is his adivser, wants to throw him in to the wolves before he was ready that's fine.
Vargas already got his ass beat by Trinidad before he was ready, and where is he now?
He faced top guys but lost to much of them.
In a few years Chavez Jr might still be fighting top guys and Vazquez Jr. Is going to be the kid who got thrown in to the wolves by his advisor.

And no Chavez wouldn't have been able to hang with someone like Martinez when he had 20 fights, but who would honestly expect him to? As soon as he became the 160 WBC champ is when it matters who and when he fights them.

You're right about how Chavez is being brought along. But that's precisely the reason as to my skepticism about his record. Think about it. Chavez has 40+ fights as a pro. In the end, his record will be compared to other fighters who had 40+ fights without a loss (if Jr. continues undefeated). But what will the comparison show? That because Junior didn't have an amateur career.... he was fed pulseless victims for the greater part of those 40+ fights. How then, can you compare his record to those who have HAD an amateur career.... and who have had credible opponents since early in their pro careers?

Answer: you can't compare them.

[greynotsoold]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

[TitoFan]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

If you're referring to Fernando Montiel, it's news to me that he was "way overrated". Curious habit we have here..... a fighter has an unexpected, atrocious loss like Montiel did against Nonito, and he's suddenly overrated. Never mind that Nonito himself was being mentioned as a p4p candidate after his destruction of Montiel. But oh well.

Also, this isn't about the dads...... it's about the sons. The fact remains: Vazquez is barely into his 20th fight as a pro. He's taken a lot more chances in his career than Chavez had at the same stage. Is there something basically incorrect about that? Chavez is only NOW taking on some risks..... after 40+ frigging fights as a pro. If no one else sees anything wrong with that..... I do. And finally... I disagree about your second to last statement. Chavez will never get close to his dad's greatness. But Vazquez has a good chance to eclipse Vazquez Sr., who was a good fighter in his own right.

[hardcore_crash]

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone though that Chavez had 40+ fights before he stepped it up.
Look at Chavez Sr. he had twice as much as that before he was getting recognition.
If he is following in his dad's footsteps , which he might want to, then he's doing it right.
I understand Chavez got a lot of heat for fighting cab drivers or what not, but looking at his career now he had a great one.
All those fights helped mold him in to the fighter he turned out to be.
Sure not everyone does that, but his dad did it got him to where he is, and it seems to be working for him to.

[TitoFan]

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone though that Chavez had 40+ fights before he stepped it up.
Look at Chavez Sr. he had twice as much as that before he was getting recognition.
If he is following in his dad's footsteps , which he might want to, then he's doing it right.
I understand Chavez got a lot of heat for fighting cab drivers or what not, but looking at his career now he had a great one.
All those fights helped mold him in to the fighter he turned out to be.
Sure not everyone does that, but his dad did it got him to where he is, and it seems to be working for him to.

I think we're looking at the same events, but we're interpreting them in different ways. You said that "Chavez Sr. had twice as much as that before he was getting recognition." I prefer to think of it as Chavez Sr. fighting bums with losing records for his first 40-some fights, all of them in Mexico. No doubt that after that... he got on track with better opposition and ended up having a great career. But does his record of 100 wins stack up twice as good as someone who fought good opposition from the very beginning and ended up with 40-50 professional fights? IMO...... no. It's a matter of personal opinion.

[greynotsoold]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

If you're referring to Fernando Montiel, it's news to me that he was "way overrated". Curious habit we have here..... a fighter has an unexpected, atrocious loss like Montiel did against Nonito, and he's suddenly overrated. Never mind that Nonito himself was being mentioned as a p4p candidate after his destruction of Montiel. But oh well.

Also, this isn't about the dads...... it's about the sons. The fact remains: Vazquez is barely into his 20th fight as a pro. He's taken a lot more chances in his career than Chavez had at the same stage. Is there something basically incorrect about that? Chavez is only NOW taking on some risks..... after 40+ frigging fights as a pro. If no one else sees anything wrong with that..... I do. And finally... I disagree about your second to last statement. Chavez will never get close to his dad's greatness. But Vazquez has a good chance to eclipse Vazquez Sr., who was a good fighter in his own right.

My belief that Montiel was overrated is based 100% on my observations. Coming up to that fight, I started to watch video of both Donaire and Montiel, decided that neither of them was much good and decided not to watch the fight. I didn't think much of either of them.
it seems to me that Chavez Jr is being brought along well; with no amateur background you learn to fight as a pro and you take your time. In the old days, 44 fights in you were just in main events. Today, you are in your 9th title defense. If there is something incorrect in this, then I would question the wisdom of fighting Arce that early. but that could well be hindsight, though I certainly don't know what they were thinking.
It would be an absolute miracle if Chavez Jr came close to matching his father. I have always thought very, very highly of Vazquez Sr. It would be one hell of a craeer for Jr to match the father in this case as well.

[TitoFan]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

If you're referring to Fernando Montiel, it's news to me that he was "way overrated". Curious habit we have here..... a fighter has an unexpected, atrocious loss like Montiel did against Nonito, and he's suddenly overrated. Never mind that Nonito himself was being mentioned as a p4p candidate after his destruction of Montiel. But oh well.

Also, this isn't about the dads...... it's about the sons. The fact remains: Vazquez is barely into his 20th fight as a pro. He's taken a lot more chances in his career than Chavez had at the same stage. Is there something basically incorrect about that? Chavez is only NOW taking on some risks..... after 40+ frigging fights as a pro. If no one else sees anything wrong with that..... I do. And finally... I disagree about your second to last statement. Chavez will never get close to his dad's greatness. But Vazquez has a good chance to eclipse Vazquez Sr., who was a good fighter in his own right.

My belief that Montiel was overrated is based 100% on my observations. Coming up to that fight, I started to watch video of both Donaire and Montiel, decided that neither of them was much good and decided not to watch the fight. I didn't think much of either of them.
it seems to me that Chavez Jr is being brought along well; with no amateur background you learn to fight as a pro and you take your time. In the old days, 44 fights in you were just in main events. Today, you are in your 9th title defense. If there is something incorrect in this, then I would question the wisdom of fighting Arce that early. but that could well be hindsight, though I certainly don't know what they were thinking.
It would be an absolute miracle if Chavez Jr came close to matching his father. I have always thought very, very highly of Vazquez Sr. It would be one hell of a craeer for Jr to match the father in this case as well.

I guess we differ on our opinions of Montiel and Donaire... particularly Donaire. But that's typical between boxing fans. Not all of us see the same things. Fair enough.

Regarding Chavez Jr's record, I just responded to hardcore crash that I don't view Junior's record very positively... and for that matter, I think Chavez Sr's record of 100 wins is extremely skewed based on his first 45 fights, where he fought nothing but bums with lousy records.... all in Mexico. Granted, he then went on to fight great opposition, and finished having a wonderful career. But stacking up purely numbers, I don't see his 100 wins any better than another great fighter, with good opposition from the very beginning... and with 40-50 fights to end his career. That is a more normal and typical number for a great fighter. I would automatically substract 45 fights from Senior's win total... if we're going to be comparing. Apples with apples.

[hardcore_crash]

We're on the same boat, I just intrepeted that line wrong.
I don't believe a record of 100-0 means anything if the level of opposition is weak.
Chavez or anyone's record.
Same as why I don't think too highly of Calzaghe.
The thing is though during those first 30 fights Chavez Jr. was not in good shape, still learning as a fighter, and wasn't even a world champion. Those fights are crucial as learning experience just amateur fights are.
As soon as Chavez became WBC champ his competition went up, and now a year later, is booked to fight the #3 p4p fighter in my eyes. That's what really counts.
If let's say , Chavez Jr. starts fighting the likes of Vanda after he is a world champ then that is all wrong.

Chavez was purely fighting for money, money, money. Coming from a poor family if he could get a fight he signed up for it. As soon as he started getting attention he fought for titles and the rest is history. I think , I'm not sure though, that you see those 80 fights Chavez has as him padding his record which I don't think it is. And I, like you, slice his record in half.

[Violent Demise]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

If you're referring to Fernando Montiel, it's news to me that he was "way overrated". Curious habit we have here..... a fighter has an unexpected, atrocious loss like Montiel did against Nonito, and he's suddenly overrated. Never mind that Nonito himself was being mentioned as a p4p candidate after his destruction of Montiel. But oh well.

Also, this isn't about the dads...... it's about the sons. The fact remains: Vazquez is barely into his 20th fight as a pro. He's taken a lot more chances in his career than Chavez had at the same stage. Is there something basically incorrect about that? Chavez is only NOW taking on some risks..... after 40+ frigging fights as a pro. If no one else sees anything wrong with that..... I do. And finally... I disagree about your second to last statement. Chavez will never get close to his dad's greatness. But Vazquez has a good chance to eclipse Vazquez Sr., who was a good fighter in his own right.

You gotta be fucking kidding me. He's not even close. Off the top of my head Sr. beat Orlando Canizales, Eloy Rojas and I believe Raul Perez. Jr has beaten who? Marvin Sonsona? Zsolt Bedak? Sonsona turned out be nothing but a pussy. And Bedak was barely mediocre. You actually downgrade Sr. career by saying Jr. has a chance to match it.

Let me tell you something. And you can take this anyway you want. Rafael Marquez is without a doubt on the decline. He's been on the decline for awhile. Not only that but he's also fighting above his best weight. With that said, he should have enough to beat Vazquez. Vazquez needs a win badly here. Vazquez has been in with some big names. But he has yet to beat any of the big names. He loses to Marquez than he might as well call it a career.

[TitoFan]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

If you're referring to Fernando Montiel, it's news to me that he was "way overrated". Curious habit we have here..... a fighter has an unexpected, atrocious loss like Montiel did against Nonito, and he's suddenly overrated. Never mind that Nonito himself was being mentioned as a p4p candidate after his destruction of Montiel. But oh well.

Also, this isn't about the dads...... it's about the sons. The fact remains: Vazquez is barely into his 20th fight as a pro. He's taken a lot more chances in his career than Chavez had at the same stage. Is there something basically incorrect about that? Chavez is only NOW taking on some risks..... after 40+ frigging fights as a pro. If no one else sees anything wrong with that..... I do. And finally... I disagree about your second to last statement. Chavez will never get close to his dad's greatness. But Vazquez has a good chance to eclipse Vazquez Sr., who was a good fighter in his own right.

You gotta be fucking kidding me. He's not even close. Off the top of my head Sr. beat Orlando Canizales, Eloy Rojas and I believe Raul Perez. Jr has beaten who? Marvin Sonsona? Zsolt Bedak? Sonsona turned out be nothing but a pussy. And Bedak was barely mediocre. You actually downgrade Sr. career by saying Jr. has a chance to match it.

Let me tell you something. And you can take this anyway you want. Rafael Marquez is without a doubt on the decline. He's been on the decline for awhile. Not only that but he's also fighting above his best weight. With that said, he should have enough to beat Vazquez. Vazquez needs a win badly here. Vazquez has been in with some big names. But he has yet to beat any of the big names. He loses to Marquez than he might as well call it a career.

Wilfredo Jr is only 28, so it's still too early to tell how the rest of his career will go. My point is that he's already taken on some big names. Yes, he lost to both Arce and Donaire... but at this point in his pro career has faced an exponentially better list of opponents than Chavez Jr had at this same point. Whether he'll match Wilfredo Sr's record is unsure and maybe dubious, but again... it's too early to tell. And yes, he needs this victory over Marquez. I think he can pull it off. The kid has wonderful talent... he's got all the tools. Let's see what happens vs Marquez, and where Wilfredo Jr goes from here.