A Tale of Two Sons of Great Fighters

[greynotsoold]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

If you're referring to Fernando Montiel, it's news to me that he was "way overrated". Curious habit we have here..... a fighter has an unexpected, atrocious loss like Montiel did against Nonito, and he's suddenly overrated. Never mind that Nonito himself was being mentioned as a p4p candidate after his destruction of Montiel. But oh well.

Also, this isn't about the dads...... it's about the sons. The fact remains: Vazquez is barely into his 20th fight as a pro. He's taken a lot more chances in his career than Chavez had at the same stage. Is there something basically incorrect about that? Chavez is only NOW taking on some risks..... after 40+ frigging fights as a pro. If no one else sees anything wrong with that..... I do. And finally... I disagree about your second to last statement. Chavez will never get close to his dad's greatness. But Vazquez has a good chance to eclipse Vazquez Sr., who was a good fighter in his own right.

My belief that Montiel was overrated is based 100% on my observations. Coming up to that fight, I started to watch video of both Donaire and Montiel, decided that neither of them was much good and decided not to watch the fight. I didn't think much of either of them.
it seems to me that Chavez Jr is being brought along well; with no amateur background you learn to fight as a pro and you take your time. In the old days, 44 fights in you were just in main events. Today, you are in your 9th title defense. If there is something incorrect in this, then I would question the wisdom of fighting Arce that early. but that could well be hindsight, though I certainly don't know what they were thinking.
It would be an absolute miracle if Chavez Jr came close to matching his father. I have always thought very, very highly of Vazquez Sr. It would be one hell of a craeer for Jr to match the father in this case as well.

[TitoFan]

With all due respect, Chavez will come out ahead. They are moving him along well. I don't think that either will become a great fighter, and neither will face a great fighter. Martinez is not great, he is ok. Arce is not great, he is fun to watch. Donaire has not shown me much except for a poorly thrown left hook against a guy that was way overrated. Neither junior will be as good as his father, and Chavez sr was miles beyond Vasquez senior.

If you're referring to Fernando Montiel, it's news to me that he was "way overrated". Curious habit we have here..... a fighter has an unexpected, atrocious loss like Montiel did against Nonito, and he's suddenly overrated. Never mind that Nonito himself was being mentioned as a p4p candidate after his destruction of Montiel. But oh well.

Also, this isn't about the dads...... it's about the sons. The fact remains: Vazquez is barely into his 20th fight as a pro. He's taken a lot more chances in his career than Chavez had at the same stage. Is there something basically incorrect about that? Chavez is only NOW taking on some risks..... after 40+ frigging fights as a pro. If no one else sees anything wrong with that..... I do. And finally... I disagree about your second to last statement. Chavez will never get close to his dad's greatness. But Vazquez has a good chance to eclipse Vazquez Sr., who was a good fighter in his own right.

My belief that Montiel was overrated is based 100% on my observations. Coming up to that fight, I started to watch video of both Donaire and Montiel, decided that neither of them was much good and decided not to watch the fight. I didn't think much of either of them.
it seems to me that Chavez Jr is being brought along well; with no amateur background you learn to fight as a pro and you take your time. In the old days, 44 fights in you were just in main events. Today, you are in your 9th title defense. If there is something incorrect in this, then I would question the wisdom of fighting Arce that early. but that could well be hindsight, though I certainly don't know what they were thinking.
It would be an absolute miracle if Chavez Jr came close to matching his father. I have always thought very, very highly of Vazquez Sr. It would be one hell of a craeer for Jr to match the father in this case as well.

I guess we differ on our opinions of Montiel and Donaire... particularly Donaire. But that's typical between boxing fans. Not all of us see the same things. Fair enough.

Regarding Chavez Jr's record, I just responded to hardcore crash that I don't view Junior's record very positively... and for that matter, I think Chavez Sr's record of 100 wins is extremely skewed based on his first 45 fights, where he fought nothing but bums with lousy records.... all in Mexico. Granted, he then went on to fight great opposition, and finished having a wonderful career. But stacking up purely numbers, I don't see his 100 wins any better than another great fighter, with good opposition from the very beginning... and with 40-50 fights to end his career. That is a more normal and typical number for a great fighter. I would automatically substract 45 fights from Senior's win total... if we're going to be comparing. Apples with apples.

[hardcore_crash]

We're on the same boat, I just intrepeted that line wrong.
I don't believe a record of 100-0 means anything if the level of opposition is weak.
Chavez or anyone's record.
Same as why I don't think too highly of Calzaghe.
The thing is though during those first 30 fights Chavez Jr. was not in good shape, still learning as a fighter, and wasn't even a world champion. Those fights are crucial as learning experience just amateur fights are.
As soon as Chavez became WBC champ his competition went up, and now a year later, is booked to fight the #3 p4p fighter in my eyes. That's what really counts.
If let's say , Chavez Jr. starts fighting the likes of Vanda after he is a world champ then that is all wrong.

Chavez was purely fighting for money, money, money. Coming from a poor family if he could get a fight he signed up for it. As soon as he started getting attention he fought for titles and the rest is history. I think , I'm not sure though, that you see those 80 fights Chavez has as him padding his record which I don't think it is. And I, like you, slice his record in half.

[TitoFan]

We're on the same boat, I just intrepeted that line wrong.
I don't believe a record of 100-0 means anything if the level of opposition is weak.
Chavez or anyone's record.
Same as why I don't think too highly of Calzaghe.
The thing is though during those first 30 fights Chavez Jr. was not in good shape, still learning as a fighter, and wasn't even a world champion. Those fights are crucial as learning experience just amateur fights are.
As soon as Chavez became WBC champ his competition went up, and now a year later, is booked to fight the #3 p4p fighter in my eyes. That's what really counts.
If let's say , Chavez Jr. starts fighting the likes of Vanda after he is a world champ then that is all wrong.

Chavez was purely fighting for money, money, money. Coming from a poor family if he could get a fight he signed up for it. As soon as he started getting attention he fought for titles and the rest is history. I think , I'm not sure though, that you see those 80 fights Chavez has as him padding his record which I don't think it is. And I, like you, slice his record in half.

I got no problem with that. If you've never fought before as an amateur... you're gonna have to "cut your teeth" in your first professional fights. And maybe Vazquez Jr has taken on a bit more than he can chew by going after the Arces, Donaires, and Marquezes with barely 20 pro fights to his credit.

But when all is said and done... all that will remain will be the record. Let's say Chavez Jr retires tomorrow. He will end up with a record of 46-0-1. The fact that he had no amateur career will be a footnote in history, and his record will be compared to the great fighters who finished with records of 45-2, 40-3, 35-2, and so on and so forth. Many great names who are head and shoulders above Junior..... but the numbers will say differently.

I have no qualms with Junior being brought along at a snail's pace. I just think his record should have an asterisk next to it.... is all.

[hardcore_crash]

I agree with you on a lot of points, the thing I don't agree with is his record having an asterisk next to it.
I do agree that his record of 46-0 shouldn't be regarded as a great undefeated record, like I said the same about Calzaghe.
About Calzaghe he was a world champion for years and didn't chose to do much. Given, Chavez Jr. probably wouldn't have either if Martinez wasn't his mandatory.
I have to applaud Sulaiman for keeping his word to Martinez on that one.


I'm not too big of a Chavez Jr. fan but I feel the first post was a little unfair.
I think it's great that Vazquez Jr. started so late, and in little time climbed the ranks fast. I actually think it's amazing and very but inspirational.

It seems they took two completely different routes, and only time will tell how far their careers go.

[TitoFan]

I just hope the Sept 15 fight happens under equal terms. No doping suspicions... no foot-dragging regarding blood or urine samples... no mysteries regarding glove inspections. In short... a fight free of controversies where it's just Junior's abilities versus Sergio's. If Junior want to climb into the ring weighing over 180 pounds... then I guess there's nothing to stop him.