Joe Calzaghe gets alot of hate.

[Beanz]

I don't get this lack of middle ground with Calzaghe. What. You either have to worship the ground he walks on..... or you're a hater? It doesn't work that way. There's pluses and minuses, as far as I'm concerned.

Pluses

- He did finish 46-0. Not easy to do under any circumstances.
- He did have two very good fights (Lacy, Kessler). Those shouldn't be held against him.
- He was busy (workrate). Quality of punches wasn't the best.... but I'll mention that later (see minuses).


Minuses

- He fought exclusively in the UK. Only for his last two fights did he venture to the U.S. In the global world of boxing, sorry..... that's a minus.

- He followed up Lacy with Peter ("Are you kidding me??") Manfredo two fights later. What the hell was all THAT about? He beats a Jeff Lacy, only to retreat to a Peter Manfredo?

- His win over B-Hop was highly disputed. Hardly a career-defining fight. He then ended up by getting a decision over an over-the-hill RJJ, and called it a career.

- What Calzaghe fans "love" to hear: His pitty-patter punches, delivered in slapping fashion... particularly in his flurries. He did it against Manfredo... he did it against B-Hop... he did it all the time. When shown in slo-mo.... the slap-fests were almost comical. He hurt his hands? Fine. But his fights were definitely not fan-friendly for me.



(Cue to Fuckster. Come running in here and express your outrage.)

Two fights that you will give him credit for. That is not quite taking the middle ground. Then you again show your double standards by trying to bait anybody who dare be reasonable and can be rational about Calzaghe's career. While we are on the subject of twos try, troll and hater.;-)

Ouch, beanz..... that hurt.

I give Calzaghe credit for some things. I just don't cherish the ground he walks on. And I explain what I don't like about him. How's that being a "hater"?

Doh! here we go

Your pluses

His Record, something you can't dispute anyway.

Then you so begrudgingly acknowledge a measly TWO fights, that you then have to qualify the fact by saying they shouldn't be held against him! as though every other fight he won was against a bum, a negative mark to be remembered when appraising him

He was busy. Talk about damning with faint praise and even then you have to add your
unqualified opinion that "His quality of punches wasn't the best"

and that is your measured opinion of exactly how much credit you are going to afford him?

You are entitled to your opinion, deluded though it is, but you can not pretend that you are the one being rational and anyone disputing your version of events is worshipping Calzaghe or looking to have him anointed. If you were interested in disputing facts you would have responded to @THE PHILOSOPHER , whose forensic breakdown completely destroys any semblance of rationality in your ranting.

Come in here VD
Come in here Fenster
Come in here I am not a TrollHonestly



There have been some boxers whose careers have been exaggerated and only sustained by careful matchmaking that inflates any real ability they may have possessed. Yet I can not seriously in good conscience give even the lamest of those credit for just two fights.
That would not constitute debate,it would simply be hate.

[TitoFan]

I don't get this lack of middle ground with Calzaghe. What. You either have to worship the ground he walks on..... or you're a hater? It doesn't work that way. There's pluses and minuses, as far as I'm concerned.

Pluses

- He did finish 46-0. Not easy to do under any circumstances.
- He did have two very good fights (Lacy, Kessler). Those shouldn't be held against him.
- He was busy (workrate). Quality of punches wasn't the best.... but I'll mention that later (see minuses).


Minuses

- He fought exclusively in the UK. Only for his last two fights did he venture to the U.S. In the global world of boxing, sorry..... that's a minus.

- He followed up Lacy with Peter ("Are you kidding me??") Manfredo two fights later. What the hell was all THAT about? He beats a Jeff Lacy, only to retreat to a Peter Manfredo?

- His win over B-Hop was highly disputed. Hardly a career-defining fight. He then ended up by getting a decision over an over-the-hill RJJ, and called it a career.

- What Calzaghe fans "love" to hear: His pitty-patter punches, delivered in slapping fashion... particularly in his flurries. He did it against Manfredo... he did it against B-Hop... he did it all the time. When shown in slo-mo.... the slap-fests were almost comical. He hurt his hands? Fine. But his fights were definitely not fan-friendly for me.



(Cue to Fuckster. Come running in here and express your outrage.)

Two fights that you will give him credit for. That is not quite taking the middle ground. Then you again show your double standards by trying to bait anybody who dare be reasonable and can be rational about Calzaghe's career. While we are on the subject of twos try, troll and hater.;-)

Ouch, beanz..... that hurt.

I give Calzaghe credit for some things. I just don't cherish the ground he walks on. And I explain what I don't like about him. How's that being a "hater"?

Doh! here we go

Your pluses

His Record, something you can't dispute anyway.

Then you so begrudgingly acknowledge a measly TWO fights, that you then have to qualify the fact by saying they shouldn't be held against him! as though every other fight he won was against a bum, a negative mark to be remembered when appraising him

He was busy. Talk about damning with faint praise and even then you have to add your
unqualified opinion that "His quality of punches wasn't the best"

and that is your measured opinion of exactly how much credit you are going to afford him?

You are entitled to your opinion, deluded though it is, but you can not pretend that you are the one being rational and anyone disputing your version of events is worshipping Calzaghe or looking to have him anointed. If you were interested in disputing facts you would have responded to @THE PHILOSOPHER , whose forensic breakdown completely destroys any semblance of rationality in your ranting.

Come in here VD
Come in here Fenster
Come in here I am not a TrollHonestly



There have been some boxers whose careers have been exaggerated and only sustained by careful matchmaking that inflates any real ability they may have possessed. Yet I can not seriously in good conscience give even the lamest of those credit for just two fights.
That would not constitute debate,it would simply be hate.

Yeah, go ahead.... call VD. Now there's a Calzaghe lover.



Like I said... there's no middle ground with Calzaghe. You either bow at his golden statue, or you're a hater. Ok... I'll choose the latter. You want to think of him as the greatest thing in civilization since the invention of the toilet? Go ahead. I personally don't subscribe to the theory that just because you retire undefeated..... that alone qualifies you for mega-stardom. All you have to do is look at the career of JCC Jr., to see what I mean. Hell... I got someone on another thread that is poking holes in Ricardo "Finito" Lopez's career (another undefeated fighter, BTW), based on quality of opponents.

Also, I'm far from the being the only one who fails to bow to the golden statue. There's even some of your own countrymen that are not convinced either. But you don't attack any of them. No. Following in the steps of the other dope... you just take exception to MY remarks.

And do you carry on your argument by yourself? No. Like the little bullied kid..... you go get your little friends so they can come and agree with you. What's next? Threatening to hold your breath till you turn blue? Give me a fucking break.

But I know what's troubling you. You don't get too many world-class champions where you come from. So when you have a Joe Calzaghe, you hold on for dear life...... and woe to those who dare defile the image of the "great one". I can sort of understand, although I don't have that same problem. I can only imagine how hard it must be for you.

[Beanz]

When have I ever called him the greatest, called in anyone to support me or resorted to cheap national stereotyping? Ha! It is perfectly possible to take the middle ground on Calzaghe, which is what I and many other boxing fans do, but you just interpret that as worship. You are very condescending and carry your own prejudice around quite blatantly whilst ridiculing the same thing when you perceive it in others. Do not assume anything about me or project your prejudice as an inverted caricature onto me or others who simply do not share your now admitted hate for a very good boxer.

Whereas you often resort to childish insults and seem to equate not wishing to waste time demeaning opponents and dismissing someones career as fanboydom, it really isn't. How many years have you wasted banging this particular drum?

[Dia bando]

When have I ever called him the greatest, called in anyone to support me or resorted to cheap national stereotyping? Ha! It is perfectly possible to take the middle ground on Calzaghe, which is what I and many other boxing fans do, but you just interpret that as worship. You are very condescending and carry your own prejudice around quite blatantly whilst ridiculing the same thing when you perceive it in others. Do not assume anything about me or project your prejudice as an inverted caricature onto me or others who simply do not share your now admitted hate for a very good boxer.

Whereas you often resort to childish insults and seem to equate not wishing to waste time demeaning opponents and dismissing someones career as fanboydom, it really isn't. How many years have you wasted banging this particular drum?

I feel Tito, is missing the point Beanz, I can not recall any one say he was the greatest, I myself have
said he was a great fighter with a few other's.
There will be a few other's, I will add to my list of great fighters may I suggest, a de bait in the New bridge community centre, with Tito as the main speaker I have a feeling it would be a good night.

[AdamGB]

Sven Ottke - Boxer

Just chucking it out there...

[Master]

Sven Ottke - Boxer

Just chucking it out there...

That shit champion was rated at one time higher than Joe, which tells it own sad story of how far Joe not doing well, until Brewer, Lacy Kessler etc

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

sven ottke - boxer

just chucking it out there...

Otke lost to brewer, mitchell and reid in my eyes!

Otke was not on joe's level. He was the most 'beaten unbeaten fighter' ever! Thats why europeans have a bad name because of joke ass sven otke.

[TitoFan]

When have I ever called him the greatest, called in anyone to support me or resorted to cheap national stereotyping? Ha! It is perfectly possible to take the middle ground on Calzaghe, which is what I and many other boxing fans do, but you just interpret that as worship. You are very condescending and carry your own prejudice around quite blatantly whilst ridiculing the same thing when you perceive it in others. Do not assume anything about me or project your prejudice as an inverted caricature onto me or others who simply do not share your now admitted hate for a very good boxer.

Whereas you often resort to childish insults and seem to equate not wishing to waste time demeaning opponents and dismissing someones career as fanboydom, it really isn't. How many years have you wasted banging this particular drum?

Uh... years? Probably a few weeks, but that's about it. Really Beanz.... you're taking it way more harshly than you should. Just as you're perfectly within your rights to rank Calzaghe as high as you want...... I feel I should be perfectly within MY rights to express those things I didn't like about him as a fighter. Everybody throws the word "hate" around here a lot. Why should I hate Calzaghe? He's never done anything to me personally. That is just plain ludicrous. But yeah... I'm pretty outspoken about my opinions. That seems to piss off a few people around here. Especially when it's about a beloved fighter. Not trying to piss people off, just be honest about my opinions.

Fighters I can't stand are fighters like Larry Holmes (racist), Margarito (cheater), James Toney (a number of reasons). I wouldn't put Calzaghe in that group. But when I'm attacked on my personal views... I do lash out... and then it all gets confused with "hate".

Again, you conveniently chose not to address my point about me not being the only person to criticize Calzaghe, a list that even extends to some of your own countrymen. But yet you single me out, as does your other cohort, and attack only my views. Why is that? Is it my way of saying it? Just wondering......

[imp]

The fact that this dicussion has spread over so many pages explains why there is so many varied views on joes career.
Joe was one of the greats and deserves to be up there..but he wouldnt beat a prime roy jones.lol

[Moneyteamkeys]

So y'all believe if he fought them Back in 94 back when James tony was great he would have ran thru all of em?

[Luckystu72]

Prime Joe beats almost anyone at super middle. Maybe not a prime RJJ, but then again who could beat a prime RJJ? If Roy had retired after beating Ruiz (even though he fought at about 193 lbs for a HW fight) then he would be near the top of the all time p4p list.

[Moneyteamkeys]

Prime Joe beats almost anyone at super middle. Maybe not a prime RJJ, but then again who could beat a prime RJJ? If Roy had retired after beating Ruiz (even though he fought at about 193 lbs for a HW fight) then he would be near the top of the all time p4p list.

I hear u on that the problem with any sports man is there drive and love for there sport and that keeps them wanting to go on even when they know that it's time to retire if pacman wasn't fighting mayweather would have been gone

[Dia bando]

Did any one see ringside, Froch and Calzaghe over12 round's he said he would lose, he would have to
KO him,to win, I give Froch cedit for being honest, he no's he could be out boxed by Joe, as Ko Joe
not much chance of that. When Froch is long gone, remember we have DeGale and Groves,so the
SM are looking a pretty strong division in this country.

[Fenster]

Did any one see ringside, Froch and Calzaghe over12 round's he said he would lose, he would have to
KO him,to win, I give Froch cedit for being honest, he no's he could be out boxed by Joe, as Ko Joe
not much chance of that. When Froch is long gone, remember we have DeGale and Groves,so the
SM are looking a pretty strong division in this country.

I thought Calzaghe got a bit defensive when Nelson read an email about Froch fighting everyone and never ducking anyone.

I think Froch is very mischievous with this Calzaghe stuff now - bascially he says Joe had no chance of stopping him but would've probably nicked a points victory if he didn't KO him. He makes them level.

Calzaghe wins PTS. FRoch wins KO.

[Dia bando]

Did any one see ringside, Froch and Calzaghe over12 round's he said he would lose, he would have to
KO him,to win, I give Froch cedit for being honest, he no's he could be out boxed by Joe, as Ko Joe
not much chance of that. When Froch is long gone, remember we have DeGale and Groves,so the
SM are looking a pretty strong division in this country.

I thought Calzaghe got a bit defensive when Nelson read an email about Froch fighting everyone and never ducking anyone.

I think Froch is very mischievous with this Calzaghe stuff now - bascially he says Joe had no chance of stopping him but would've probably nicked a points victory if he didn't KO him. He makes them level.

Calzaghe wins PTS. FRoch wins KO.

The thing is Froch, can't deal with smart boxer's and Joe is a smart boxer, all this talk about him ko Joe that's a load of crap.What about Joe giving him a one side drubbing,just like he gave Lacy Froch
is a good fighter. Were Joe will be in the Hall of Fame as a modern great, Froch will never achieve
that feat.Not many fighters retire undefeated also a two weight World Champion, it's something to Bragg about.I have followed many fighters through the years, and Calzaghe is up there with the very best,It's all about levels it may upset people, but Froch is a few levels below Calzaghe, nothing I have seen or heard will change my opinion.