Romney vs. Obama Debate - Part II on Tuesday - let's score it!

[VictorCharlie]

Come on Kirk. You would never allow Lyle or myself to make a statement like that w/o supporting facts. So please show me a supporting document that describes the amount of federal money that a state was using specifically for their Universities/Colleges general funds and the amount it has decreased by since 1980.

[Kirkland Laing]

Come on Kirk. You would never allow Lyle or myself to make a statement like that w/o supporting facts. So please show me a supporting document that describes the amount of federal money that a state was using specifically for their Universities/Colleges general funds and the amount it has decreased by since 1980.

The fact is that since Reagan there have been massive cuts of federal funding to states and one of the ways that states have made up the funding gap is by charging higher and higher tuition fees :

Once elected, Mr. Reagan set the educational tone for his administration by:

a. calling for an end to free tuition for state college and university students,
b. annually demanding 20% across-the-board cuts in higher education funding,[2]
c. repeatedly slashing construction funds for state campuses
d. engineering the firing of Clark Kerr, the popular President of the University of California, and
e. declaring that the state "should not subsidize intellectual curiosity,[3]"



http://www.newfoundations.com/Clabaugh/CuttingEdge/Reagan.html


So how about that. It turns out it's a conservative aim to end free tuition to state universities as part of the conservative war on education (Reagan having run on a platform of abolishing the Department of Education in 1980) and when they finally do succeed in passing the cost of tuition from the state to students they then turn round and say it's government subsidies that are causing the problem.





Also, too, a more detailed look at the whole thing :


http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/from-master-plan-to-no-plan-the-slow-death-of-public-higher-education

[VictorCharlie]

Come on Kirk. You would never allow Lyle or myself to make a statement like that w/o supporting facts. So please show me a supporting document that describes the amount of federal money that a state was using specifically for their Universities/Colleges general funds and the amount it has decreased by since 1980.

The fact is that since Reagan there have been massive cuts of federal funding to states and one of the ways that states have made up the funding gap is by charging higher and higher tuition fees :

Once elected, Mr. Reagan set the educational tone for his administration by:

a. calling for an end to free tuition for state college and university students,
b. annually demanding 20% across-the-board cuts in higher education funding,[2]
c. repeatedly slashing construction funds for state campuses
d. engineering the firing of Clark Kerr, the popular President of the University of California, and
e. declaring that the state "should not subsidize intellectual curiosity,[3]"



http://www.newfoundations.com/Clabaugh/CuttingEdge/Reagan.html


So how about that. It turns out it's a conservative aim to end free tuition to state universities as part of the conservative war on education (Reagan having run on a platform of abolishing the Department of Education in 1980) and when they finally do succeed in passing the cost of tuition from the state to students they then turn round and say it's government subsidies that are causing the problem.





Also, too, a more detailed look at the whole thing :


http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/from-master-plan-to-no-plan-the-slow-death-of-public-higher-education

I only skimmed through the second article so feel free to show me where I am wrong but the only cuts in spending for the general funds of universities your articles mention were what Reagan did as Governor of California (your points A-E) not as President. There is no mention of cuts in federal money that was used for universities general funds. Again provide a credible source showing federal funds provided specifically for all states colleges' general funds across the nation decreasing since 1980 or concede.

[El Kabong]

GAME, SET, MATCH VC

[Kirkland Laing]

Come on Kirk. You would never allow Lyle or myself to make a statement like that w/o supporting facts. So please show me a supporting document that describes the amount of federal money that a state was using specifically for their Universities/Colleges general funds and the amount it has decreased by since 1980.

The fact is that since Reagan there have been massive cuts of federal funding to states and one of the ways that states have made up the funding gap is by charging higher and higher tuition fees :

Once elected, Mr. Reagan set the educational tone for his administration by:

a. calling for an end to free tuition for state college and university students,
b. annually demanding 20% across-the-board cuts in higher education funding,[2]
c. repeatedly slashing construction funds for state campuses
d. engineering the firing of Clark Kerr, the popular President of the University of California, and
e. declaring that the state "should not subsidize intellectual curiosity,[3]"



http://www.newfoundations.com/Clabaugh/CuttingEdge/Reagan.html


So how about that. It turns out it's a conservative aim to end free tuition to state universities as part of the conservative war on education (Reagan having run on a platform of abolishing the Department of Education in 1980) and when they finally do succeed in passing the cost of tuition from the state to students they then turn round and say it's government subsidies that are causing the problem.





Also, too, a more detailed look at the whole thing :


http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/from-master-plan-to-no-plan-the-slow-death-of-public-higher-education

I only skimmed through the second article so feel free to show me where I am wrong but the only cuts in spending for the general funds of universities your articles mention were what Reagan did as Governor of California (your points A-E) not as President. There is no mention of cuts in federal money that was used for universities general funds. Again provide a credible source showing federal funds provided specifically for all states colleges' general funds across the nation decreasing since 1980 or concede.

I never said there was any direct link between federal aid cuts and the general funds of state universities. You're the first person to mention the general funds because you know there's no way I can make alink between the two things.

You're not going to find a direct link between cuts in federal aid to states and the general funds of state universities. What you do have is a general reduction in federal aid to states which has created a situation where the cost of tuition has been passed from the state to the student.

[VictorCharlie]

Come on Kirk. You would never allow Lyle or myself to make a statement like that w/o supporting facts. So please show me a supporting document that describes the amount of federal money that a state was using specifically for their Universities/Colleges general funds and the amount it has decreased by since 1980.

The fact is that since Reagan there have been massive cuts of federal funding to states and one of the ways that states have made up the funding gap is by charging higher and higher tuition fees :

Once elected, Mr. Reagan set the educational tone for his administration by:

a. calling for an end to free tuition for state college and university students,
b. annually demanding 20% across-the-board cuts in higher education funding,[2]
c. repeatedly slashing construction funds for state campuses
d. engineering the firing of Clark Kerr, the popular President of the University of California, and
e. declaring that the state "should not subsidize intellectual curiosity,[3]"



http://www.newfoundations.com/Clabaugh/CuttingEdge/Reagan.html


So how about that. It turns out it's a conservative aim to end free tuition to state universities as part of the conservative war on education (Reagan having run on a platform of abolishing the Department of Education in 1980) and when they finally do succeed in passing the cost of tuition from the state to students they then turn round and say it's government subsidies that are causing the problem.





Also, too, a more detailed look at the whole thing :


http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/from-master-plan-to-no-plan-the-slow-death-of-public-higher-education

I only skimmed through the second article so feel free to show me where I am wrong but the only cuts in spending for the general funds of universities your articles mention were what Reagan did as Governor of California (your points A-E) not as President. There is no mention of cuts in federal money that was used for universities general funds. Again provide a credible source showing federal funds provided specifically for all states colleges' general funds across the nation decreasing since 1980 or concede.

I never said there was any direct link between federal aid cuts and the general funds of state universities. You're the first person to mention the general funds because you know there's no way I can make alink between the two things.

You're not going to find a direct link between cuts in federal aid to states and the general funds of state universities. What you do have is a general reduction in federal aid to states which has created a situation where the cost of tuition has been passed from the state to the student.

You said

State universities have increased tuition costs because since the Reagan era their federal funding has been slashed so they've got to get the money from somewhere.

and

There's been massive underfunding and cutting of funding for state universities at federal and state level since the 1980s.

Now after you've done some research and realized that the Feds don't directly fund state schools you are trying to back track. The Feds do indirectly provide money for higher education through grants, research funds and student loans. This money has in fact increased since 1980. Even if we were to look at your new hypothesis that generic federal funding for states falling is the culprit for tuition increases this would not effect states across the board b/c each state's budget and higher education funds are unique to them. Each state would treat this differently with varying results. You will find graphs below supporting my statements and I will take my victory lap now. Score one for the good guy!!!

Hey no federal money mentioned


Hey we spend more federal cash on grants, research and student loans than in 1980

[Kirkland Laing]

Come on Kirk. You would never allow Lyle or myself to make a statement like that w/o supporting facts. So please show me a supporting document that describes the amount of federal money that a state was using specifically for their Universities/Colleges general funds and the amount it has decreased by since 1980.

The fact is that since Reagan there have been massive cuts of federal funding to states and one of the ways that states have made up the funding gap is by charging higher and higher tuition fees :

Once elected, Mr. Reagan set the educational tone for his administration by:

a. calling for an end to free tuition for state college and university students,
b. annually demanding 20% across-the-board cuts in higher education funding,[2]
c. repeatedly slashing construction funds for state campuses
d. engineering the firing of Clark Kerr, the popular President of the University of California, and
e. declaring that the state "should not subsidize intellectual curiosity,[3]"



http://www.newfoundations.com/Clabaugh/CuttingEdge/Reagan.html


So how about that. It turns out it's a conservative aim to end free tuition to state universities as part of the conservative war on education (Reagan having run on a platform of abolishing the Department of Education in 1980) and when they finally do succeed in passing the cost of tuition from the state to students they then turn round and say it's government subsidies that are causing the problem.





Also, too, a more detailed look at the whole thing :


http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/from-master-plan-to-no-plan-the-slow-death-of-public-higher-education

I only skimmed through the second article so feel free to show me where I am wrong but the only cuts in spending for the general funds of universities your articles mention were what Reagan did as Governor of California (your points A-E) not as President. There is no mention of cuts in federal money that was used for universities general funds. Again provide a credible source showing federal funds provided specifically for all states colleges' general funds across the nation decreasing since 1980 or concede.

I never said there was any direct link between federal aid cuts and the general funds of state universities. You're the first person to mention the general funds because you know there's no way I can make alink between the two things.

You're not going to find a direct link between cuts in federal aid to states and the general funds of state universities. What you do have is a general reduction in federal aid to states which has created a situation where the cost of tuition has been passed from the state to the student.

You said

State universities have increased tuition costs because since the Reagan era their federal funding has been slashed so they've got to get the money from somewhere.

and

There's been massive underfunding and cutting of funding for state universities at federal and state level since the 1980s.

Now after you've done some research and realized that the Feds don't directly fund state schools you are trying to back track. The Feds do indirectly provide money for higher education through grants, research funds and student loans. This money has in fact increased since 1980. Even if we were to look at your new hypothesis that generic federal funding for states falling is the culprit for tuition increases this would not effect states across the board b/c each state's budget and higher education funds are unique to them. Each state would treat this differently with varying results. You will find graphs below supporting my statements and I will take my victory lap now. Score one for the good guy!!!

Hey no federal money mentioned


Hey we spend more federal cash on grants, research and student loans than in 1980

Good to see you using facts and figues. See that "state support" bit of the pie chart? That's the bit that's been decreased since Reagan. And it's been decreased because there have been cuts in federal money transfers to states. The states have made up these cuts by transferring the cost of tuition to the student. I already explained this twice and then you changed the subject by prattling on about the general fund of state universities, something I never mentioned.

Also, too. If you look at your last graph you see a huge increase in federal subsidies to education in the past decade. How come tuition fees haven't seen a similar spike if government subsidies cause tuition cost increases?

[VictorCharlie]

The state support went down as a percentage but not as a value. Since some portions increased making the pie bigger somer parts decreased as a percent. I shouldn't have to explain fractions to you. The states have never used federal money to fund universities and colleges, so how much money they are getting from the feds now or then for other programs is irrelevant and even if this was the case it wouldn't be an across the board effect b/c as I mentioned earlier when I did address this point each state would deal with it uniquely.

Tuition has seen a spike in relation to the subsidies hence this entire thread.

Image Detail for - College_tuition_Graph

Pack it in Kirk. You got owned on this one.