Judging a fighter's resume

[Fenster]

What serious boxing fan doesn't rate quality over quantity when judging a fighters record? If the 50-0 fighter has fought a load of bums and the 30-3 fighter is proven world-class everyone will consider the latter superior.

Considering you only mentioned Canelo and Chavez Jr in your original post I guess this is about them.

If you chop the bottom half of Canelo's record off, for a 22-year-old, at 20-0, with a bunch of former world champions and challengers on his record it's still very impressive. And Chavez Jr, as weak as his overall record is, nearly knocked out a P4P star and the lineal middleweight champ.

So even if they have bloated records, they both proved themselves at world level.

[TitoFan]

No major disagreements on this topic. Maybe a couple of minor comments:

What serious boxing fan doesn't rate quality over quantity when judging a fighters record? If the 50-0 fighter has fought a load of bums and the 30-3 fighter is proven world-class everyone will consider the latter superior.

Not everyone. You and I and other serious boxing fans would... but there's others that would just look at the record at face value.

If you chop the bottom half of Canelo's record off, for a 22-year-old, at 20-0, with a bunch of former world champions and challengers on his record it's still very impressive.

No issues with that. Given Canelo's very young age, and even though the former world champions have been either over-the-hill or undersized... at 22 years old it's still impressive. To a point.

And Chavez Jr, as weak as his overall record is, nearly knocked out a P4P star and the lineal middleweight champ.

So even if they have bloated records, they both proved themselves at world level.

My major disagreement is over JCC Jr. Combine the extreme coddling and opponent handpicking... the doping issues, all designed to bring Junior in at twice the size of his opponent on fight night... the lack of discipline and thinking he's owed greatness because of his last name...

He was being thoroughly owned and schooled by the much smaller Martinez before catching him in the 11th round. Martinez still used his vastly superior boxing skills to weather the storm and finish the beating.

IMO, Junior has proved little except being a one-dimensional, undisciplined fighter with a good chin.

[IamInuit]

@TitoFan

Great topic and worthy of exploration. I always or at least try to approach resumes with caution but there are times when its pretty clear cut. Take the Moyer brothers for example. They have lots of loses but they fought everyone, anywhere and at times with a days notice. Gans finishes a fight and then jumps on a train to fight Langford the next evening. I think the main culprit surrounding this issue is the market. Only a few tv dates a year and you get one loss today and the chances of becoming a bankable prize fighter starts to diminish. Way to much emphasis on a loss today in my view.

Ray Leonards resume is a standout because he did not waste his better years fighting schleps and actually wanted a real legacy and he's got one. He would have never entertained fighting today's version of Roy Jones just to have his name on his resume.

And how about your countryman Wilfredo. Turned pro at 15 and then went on a 25 fight winning streak which he accomplished in just over a year and ending with a title shot at 17.

To me in many ways boxing has become somewhat of a reflection of the coddled world we live in. I mean last summer I saw children playing in a sandbox wearing helmets.

I don't really buy the notion that these people a babied because they have no amateur experience. Zarate only had about 30 amateur fights and most Mexican fighters have little or no experience in the amateurs. The same can be said about most Latin American countries as kids turn pro at age 15 and in many cases out of necessity.

Lopez had fewer then 20 and so did Duran

Qawi None
Moore None
Conn None
Manny None
Marciano None
Toney about 30
Foreman just over 20 I think

Good stuff Tfan

[TitoFan]

@TitoFan

Great topic and worthy of exploration. I always or at least try to approach resumes with caution but there are times when its pretty clear cut. Take the Moyer brothers for example. They have lots of loses but they fought everyone, anywhere and at times with a days notice. Gans finishes a fight and then jumps on a train to fight Langford the next evening. I think the main culprit surrounding this issue is the market. Only a few tv dates a year and you get one loss today and the chances of becoming a bankable prize fighter starts to diminish. Way to much emphasis on a loss today in my view.

Ray Leonards resume is a standout because he did not waste his better years fighting schleps and actually wanted a real legacy and he's got one. He would have never entertained fighting today's version of Roy Jones just to have his name on his resume.

And how about your countryman Wilfredo. Turned pro at 15 and then went on a 25 fight winning streak which he accomplished in just over a year and ending with a title shot at 17.

To me in many ways boxing has become somewhat of a reflection of the coddled world we live in. I mean last summer I saw children playing in a sandbox wearing helmets.

I don't really buy the notion that these people a babied because they have no amateur experience. Zarate only had about 30 amateur fights and most Mexican fighters have little or no experience in the amateurs. The same can be said about most Latin American countries as kids turn pro at age 15 and in many cases out of necessity.

Lopez had fewer then 20 and so did Duran

Qawi None
Moore None
Conn None
Manny None
Marciano None
Toney about 30
Foreman just over 20 I think

Good stuff Tfan

Although it's not written in stone, I believe there is a "typical" career path for a world class fighter. Your first 20 or so fights are against comparable, not-well-known opposition... as part of your learning curve. After that, one should begin to see a gradual, but steady improvement in the degree of opposition. If a fighter gets to 40 fights and is still fighting handpicked bums, or guys making their own pro debuts.... something's wrong.

Cotto fought some tough opposition beginning from before his 20th fight. After that, it was a steady stream of world-class fighters. You mentioned Wilfred Benitez getting a title shot at 17. That was against the famous Kid Pambelé, in Wilfred's 26th pro fight. The great Roberto Duran... he fought the tough Hiroshi Kubayashi in his 26th professional fight, took the title from Ken Buchanan (WBA lightweight) 3 fights later..... and proceeded to fight a veritable "Who's Who" of boxing from there on out.

I looked at Zarate's record, and found it to be lacking in quality of opposition until he fought Alberto Zamora. But by that time Carlos had had 40-some fights. Not criticizing the great Zarate... but IMO he was brought along rather slowly.

That's why I maintain it's not just the numbers on the Win-Loss columns. It's how you're brought along, and who you face on your way up. I've even mentioned Wilfredo Vazquez Jr. Only 20-some fights, and already has faced world-class opposition. Yes, he lost to both Arce and Donaire. But both fights were competitive, and he was actually up on Arce when he got knocked out late in the fight.

Felix Trinidad, my favorite fighter, won the IBF welterweight title against Maurice Blocker in his 20th pro fight. And then proceeded to end a few unbeaten records along the line. Even Oscar de la Hoya, a fighter I was never much a fan of, was fighting very credible opposition by his 20th pro fight.

Bottom line is that the padding of records is one of those things I find deplorable in boxing today. Too much emphasis on undefeated records, I think. And I agree with you... it's typical of the coddled society we live in today. I don't remember so much cherry-picking before.

[Fenster]

I don't really buy the notion that these people a babied because they have no amateur experience. Zarate only had about 30 amateur fights and most Mexican fighters have little or no experience in the amateurs. The same can be said about most Latin American countries as kids turn pro at age 15 and in many cases out of necessity.

Lopez had fewer then 20 and so did Duran

Qawi None
Moore None
Conn None
Manny None
Marciano None
Toney about 30
Foreman just over 20 I think

Good stuff Tfan

Manny (lots) and Marciano both had amateur fights.

Most of those fighters had around 30 fights before getting a "world" title shot, which puts them in the same ball park as the two fighters originally mentioned. Lack of amateur experience/lots of pro fights seems pretty common.

[TitoFan]

Read post 10. Not only are they not in the same ball park.
They're not even in the same planet.

[Fenster]

Read post 10. Not only are they not in the same ball park.
They're not even in the same planet.

Alvarez had 30+ fights before fighting for a "world" title. Chavez jr 40+ fights.

Moore, Marciano, Conn and Zarate had 40+ plus fights before a "world" title shot.
Foreman had 30+
Duran near 30
Pac 25+
Toney 25+

For sure this era is different, with multi champions, but it shows there's nothing new about fighters having loads of contests before getting to the top. What's the big deal?

[TitoFan]

Read post 10. Not only are they not in the same ball park.
They're not even in the same planet.

Alvarez had 30+ fights before fighting for a "world" title. Chavez jr 40+ fights.

Moore, Marciano, Conn and Zarate had 40+ plus fights before a "world" title shot.
Foreman had 30+
Duran near 30
Pac 25+
Toney 25+

For sure this era is different, with multi champions, but it shows there's nothing new about fighters having loads of contests before getting to the top. What's the big deal?

Yes there's a lot of "in-between", but you got your extremes as well. Chavez Jr as you said had 40+ fights before fighting a world-class fighter for a championship. I pointed out other fighters that were fighting world-class opposition before their 20th fight. If nothing else, it supports my point that fighters like JCC Jr are coddled beyond belief... and their W-L record is pretty much meaningless.

[IamInuit]

I don't really buy the notion that these people a babied because they have no amateur experience. Zarate only had about 30 amateur fights and most Mexican fighters have little or no experience in the amateurs. The same can be said about most Latin American countries as kids turn pro at age 15 and in many cases out of necessity.

Lopez had fewer then 20 and so did Duran

Qawi None
Moore None
Conn None
Manny None
Marciano None
Toney about 30
Foreman just over 20 I think

Good stuff Tfan

Manny (lots) and Marciano both had amateur fights.

Most of those fighters had around 30 fights before getting a "world" title shot, which puts them in the same ball park as the two fighters originally mentioned. Lack of amateur experience/lots of pro fights seems pretty common.

Forgot about Manny for some reason and must of had a vapour lock and its claimed that Marciano had around 12 but there is some dispute.