Lets end the Mike Tyson debate

[Master]

I think Tyson beats Joe Louis but Joe was the better champion because he showed consistency and a will to win when the odds were against him.

[ray corso]

beanflicker or anyone else; Someone please enlighten me on the "new sciences" in sports and the more modern techniques in training that enables Tyson to beat any heavy before the 1960's (love to hear this)

Please elaborate on the "training sciense "stuff"" HA!!!! Can't wait to learn what Mike ate at the training table in the Catskills!!! Ray.

[IamInuit]

There have been two all time great heavyweights since the war, Joe Louis and Cassius Clay. Unfortunately Rocky Marciano does not deserve to join them because he was never tested against serious opposition (most of his opponents were over 40 years old), bit like Joe Calzaghe but that's for another thread.
The best that Mike Tyson can hope for, if we exclude the cheating and fouling in the ring, together with even worse behaviour outside, is that he is compared favourably to Joe Frazier, a fighter of similar style, an Olympic Champion but still not quite an all time great.
The worst that we can remember about Mike Tyson is that a generation of dangerous dogs were named after him by phsycopathic nutters who beleived the 80's hype (some even named their kids after him!).
So lets get it in perspective, Joe Frazier acheived far more in his career than Mike Tyson, who has been humiliated many times since Buster Douglas sussed him out.

You cant simply narrow the scope and then broaden it depending on who the person is. The suggestion that there have only been two great heavyweights since WW2 is ridiculous and who cares whether some half wit punk names his pitbull after him or that Tyson was a dickhead? Guys like Liston, Ketchel, Benny Leonard, Walker and yes even Robinson to name but a few make Tyson look like a cub scout. And Joe Frazier and him really fought nothing alike at all unless you consider a hook conjoining their styles. A prime Mike Tyson would have been at the top of the pile in any era including Ali's. What he did or did not do outside the ring or how many people name their budgies after him is not a qualifier for his standing historically as a fighter.

[Boxer4life]

Let's clear up the Cus D'Amato thing too where people say Tyson would've gone further if only Cus didn't die...

19 year old Mike Tyson had been a professional for only 8 months when Cus D'Amato died in Nov 1985.
At the time of Cus' death, Tyson was still fightin' no-hopers and never-wases with not a single ranked fighter on his entire 11 fight resume.

Tyson won a version of the title in Nov 1986, but many point to the 1988 Spinks fight as Tyson's peak when he won the LINEAL title.
1988 is a long ways from Cus' death in 1985 in fighter years and development.


The first time I ever saw Mike Tyson was on tv the month AFTER Cus died, Dec 1985, the Sam Scaff fight, and Tyson looked amazing.
Yeah, when Tyson the contender was just getting known, the old man had already passed by then. Tyson looked better AFTER Cus was gone, and against better competition too.

i think it just lasted him for a while, after fame came, he discpline slipped and he kept beating guys only because of his strong foundation, i dont think , and this is purely opinion, that tyson was a complete project, i think he couldve develped further and possibly never have been beaten

[Boxer4life]

So since this is a debate just how would Tyson do against the champs of the past and their competition?


Starting around 1906: Left out the likes of Corbett, Fitzy, Jeffries and Sullivan.

Call it catharsis. Been seeing these threads since the internet was invented.

Tommy Burns. Tyson destroys him and anybody he beat legitimately.

Jack Johnson. With the exception of Jeanette, Langford and Mcvea who would pose problems for Mike I think he waxes everyone on Johnson’s ledger and beats Jack himself.

Dempsey and Willard. Tyson beats the piss out of both of them and anyone on both of their charts.

Tunney. He never defended once he won it but head to head I just don’t see him keeping Mike off him and with or without the neutral corner rule I think he leaves the ring on his back.

Schmeling. Tyson beats him anyone he did with the exception of Louis and if people are honest with themselves there is a chance he gets to Louis also.

Sharkey. Tyson slaughters him beats all he did.

Carnera. Ditto

Baer. Tyson v Max would have been fun to watch. Tyson beats everybody he ever fought.

Braddock. Tyson again.

Louis. I would tend to lean with Louis and I think a prime Walcott would be tough on Tyson. I think a prime Ezzard could beat Tyson. Tyson beats up everyone else on Joe’s hit list.

Charles. See above and I think guys like Johnson and Satterfield would have been good scraps with Mike. Can’t discount some of those Murderers Row guys with anyone really although they all may have been too small in their prime.

Jersey Joe. Essentially covered.

Marciano. The Rock deserves his respect but he would not last long with Tyson nor would anyone he fought when he fought them. He never fought any of the guys already mentioned in their prime or even close to it.

Floyd Patterson. He gets blasted out by Tyson and in Liston like fashion. Speaking of Sonny that is a hell of a fight. They could easily split a couple. Laugh if you will but I think Chuvalo’s durability troubles Mike but Tyson beats everyone else Floyd did.

Johansson. Tyson rubs him out along with everyone he fought.

Liston. Hell of a fight between the two but once again nobody he beat bothers Mike. Williams gives him a go but that’s about it

Terrell. Tyson beats him and anyone he beat except one that he lost to.

Ali. Here is where Tyson runs into some trouble. I’ll leave out those already mentioned.
Frazier was my favourite hev but I don’t think he hangs with Tyson. Mike was faster, had better feet and head movement and concussive power from both sides. Hell of a fight but I think Mike prevails. Norton's crab style may have given issues to the likes of Ali and Holmes but it simply does not work with Tyson. It’s a 50/50 fight

Foreman. Frazier's fight simply does not reflect how a Tyson fight pans out. Nobody really got to Foreman prior to Ron Lyle. Tyson gets to him and once he decks Foreman his finishing kick would finish the job. Speaking of Lyle imo he has a much better chance at Tyson then Foreman despite being beaten by him. That’s another 50/50 fight. I think Jimmy Young has the goods to beat Tyson. Not much hope for Earnie I’m afraid and Leon might lose his life. I think Mike at his best beats any version of Holmes. I believe a prime Ali beats Mike but it’s not a walk in the park.

Holmes. Anyone Holmes beat Mike beats with perhaps a few exceptions. I think a more experienced Witherspoon gives Tyson some issues and a prime Mercer. We all know that Holyfield beat Mike but I don’t think he beats the late eighties version or its certainly not clear that he would.

The 80’s and 90’s are pretty self explanatory since he was in them and the only two up to say 1999 that beat a prime Tyson are most likely Lennox and Vitali. It’s hard to know what happened for sure to Mike on that fateful night in Tokyo but to his credit Douglas fought a perfect fight and probably could not have done it twice given how he looked against Holyfield. Bowe probably would have given him a good scrap. Moorer would be in a coma.

From 2000 on I again do not see anyone other then Lewis or Vitali that beat a prime Mike including all the belt holders and anyone they fought. If Sanders was serious he may have had a chance but Mike cruises through.

Wlad. The Wlad of today might have a shot but nobody on his list does.


My conclusion: This is just my opinion based on the whole picture. I never even liked Tyson and kept going out of my way to see his fights hoping he would lose. As much as Leonard stopping Hearns in the 14th was one of my worst nights, seeing Tyson on all fours reaching for his mouth piece was a highlight. My personal feelings are simply not relevant.

Tyson is an ATG and 1st ballot hall of famer.
Tyson is a Top 10 ATG heavyweight.
Tyson is arguably a Top 5 ATG heavyweight.

that about sums it up

[Mr140]

I think the people overrating him do it far worse then the people underrating him. I mean you guys who are his fans say he it like number 1 heavyweight and only Ali beats him bit overboard. People underatting him say he is just out side the top ten because he lost all his big fights which is some what true and has facts to it because it happened. I think he is in the lower part of the ten he had good run which was short but got win over a older Larry who still did good things. The thing holds him back is he lost to Douglas while in his prime but took him lightly no excuse still lost, then lost his big fights with a way older Holyfeild with heart problems and Lewis who was also older then him. Then he went on to lose to cans before quitting on the ground which at that point i dont blame him the guy i forget who but he was not on the level.

[El Kabong]

Let's clear up the Cus D'Amato thing too where people say Tyson would've gone further if only Cus didn't die...

19 year old Mike Tyson had been a professional for only 8 months when Cus D'Amato died in Nov 1985.
At the time of Cus' death, Tyson was still fightin' no-hopers and never-wases with not a single ranked fighter on his entire 11 fight resume.

Tyson won a version of the title in Nov 1986, but many point to the 1988 Spinks fight as Tyson's peak when he won the LINEAL title.
1988 is a long ways from Cus' death in 1985 in fighter years and development.


The first time I ever saw Mike Tyson was on tv the month AFTER Cus died, Dec 1985, the Sam Scaff fight, and Tyson looked amazing.
Yeah, when Tyson the contender was just getting known, the old man had already passed by then. Tyson looked better AFTER Cus was gone, and against better competition too.

i think it just lasted him for a while, after fame came, he discpline slipped and he kept beating guys only because of his strong foundation, i dont think , and this is purely opinion, that tyson was a complete project, i think he couldve develped further and possibly never have been beaten

His style always had an expiration date on it

[cambay411]

I think he would beat anyone he lost to in his prime except one person. Holyfield.

Holyfield is the one person that would take all his punches and still out work Mike.

If you watch the second Holyfield Tyson fight, Tyson looked pretty good. I would almost say prime Tyson. I would love to have seen that fight play out. Holyfield would have won on points probably but none the less a good fight.

Not to mention Holyfield was head butting the sht outta Tyson. Im not saying Tyson should have bit his ear off but the ref should have took a point away at least. And with Holyfield head butting like he was, Tyson's dumbass (sorry Mike) was bound to do something stupid.

Who ever says Tyson is just an over rated puncher doesn't know the game. His headmovment is probably the best of all time.

[Master]

That last round where Tyson went into fury mode, hurt Holyfield but he could not sustain it as a prime version would have. That would have been good to see.

[Mr140]

Mater disagree when it comes to Tyson but you make some points and Holyfeild vs Tyson in there pump would of been something. But when Holyfield looked out he just come back like he was never hurt i say he still takes a close win with his head and holding when he needed to.

[bradlee180]

Could Holyfield have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

When Holy was Cruiserweight Champ, the limit was 190 lbs, but Holyfield usually weighed in several lbs under at 186 lbs, 187, 188 lbs.
Holy wasn't sweating off lbs to make weight, he came in under, and he was like 25 years old at the time.

In April 1988, Holyfield scaled 190 lbs against Carlos DeLeon for his final Cruiserweight fight.
In Dec 1988, Holyfield scaled 212 lbs ripped against Pinklon Thomas.

Mr.Olympia legend Lee Haney was in charge of bulking up Holyfield back then.

Holyfield was a Great fighter, but how much did the steroids contribute? Steroids won't make a good fighter into a Great fighter, but I wonder how much did it contribute, and could he have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

[cambay411]

Could Holyfield have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

When Holy was Cruiserweight Champ, the limit was 190 lbs, but Holyfield usually weighed in several lbs under at 186 lbs, 187, 188 lbs.
Holy wasn't sweating off lbs to make weight, he came in under, and he was like 25 years old at the time.

In April 1988, Holyfield scaled 190 lbs against Carlos DeLeon for his final Cruiserweight fight.
In Dec 1988, Holyfield scaled 212 lbs ripped against Pinklon Thomas.

Mr.Olympia legend Lee Haney was in charge of bulking up Holyfield back then.

Holyfield was a Great fighter, but how much did the steroids contribute? Steroids won't make a good fighter into a Great fighter, but I wonder how much did it contribute, and could he have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

Roids can definitely be the difference between a good fighter and a great fighter. You take any fighter and give them extra strength, speed and stamina and they will go up a level at least. Especially if they are a smart fighter.

Holyfield would have been great anyway but it could have been the difference in some fights as much as I hate to say it. IF he used roids I would loose much respect for him and that hurts me bad cause I LOVE Hoyfield.

I say "if he used roids" and I hope im not just in denial.

It really makes you think tho, how many ATG's have used roids?

[bradlee180]

Tommy Morrison was a good fighter, certainly Top 5 out of about a thousand licensed Heavyweight boxers. He didn't have that little extra bit of talent that makes a man Top 3 instead of top 5, and Morrison was on steroids.

Plenty of guys in MMA have tested positive, and they were not the outstanding fighters.

EDIT:
"If he used roids", Of course he used them!
From about 1988 till now, for 25 years, he's used them!

[cambay411]

Tommy Morrison was a good fighter, certainly Top 5 out of about a thousand licensed Heavyweight boxers. He didn't have that little extra bit of talent that makes a man Top 3 instead of top 5, and Morrison was on steroids.

Plenty of guys in MMA have tested positive, and they were not the outstanding fighters.

EDIT:
"If he used roids", Of course he used them!
From about 1988 till now, for 25 years, he's used them!

I know Ive read about it, im in denial probably. I mean look at how hes built.

[Mr140]

Yet Holyfeild has never been tested positive for a fight so if he has for 25 years and has not been caught then i am sure ever pro who does not do blood testing is on them. I mean if your career on the line and you can get better why not i honestly think they should be legal because everyone is using anyway. I mean with no retirement plan might as well take what you can get because fans only like you when you win and forget you when you lose. So if your a fighter i can see it being pretty easy chose to make to be honest with you.