Duran vs Whitaker, prime vs prime at LW

[Beanflicker]

Leonard was blue printing a Pernell before Whitakers Pappy was rolling in the backseat.

Oh for sure, I give big respect to the pioneers like Leonard who paved boxing's long highway and made it possible for guys like Whitaker, PBF, Roy Jones, ect to exist!

But we're talking WAY back in the day when boxing was still evolving, people were figuring out what worked and what didn't. Back when sport science was basically non existent and nutrition and training wasn't nearly as advanced as it is in modern times. Guys are bigger, stronger, faster and technique grew a great deal since.

So when people say stuff like Benny Leonard would kill Whitaker or Mosley... it's just unrealistic. If you had a time machine to go bring him (at his prime) to Pernell's time and have them fight, he wouldn't know what to make of Pernell (or Mosley).

Great for their time, but if you want to talk modern day, you can't compare a guy like that.

[Master]

Beanflicker your bias for new fighters makes sense in the heavyweight division but not for the lighter weight fighters. They were tough, skilled and seasoned campaigners who could easily have wiped the floor with many fighters today.

[Beanflicker]

Beanflicker your bias for new fighters makes sense in the heavyweight division but not for the lighter weight fighters. They were tough, skilled and seasoned campaigners who could easily have wiped the floor with many fighters today.

I'm not saying they weren't tough, seasoned or skilled. I'm just saying that skills have evolved since then, and they are, in general, athletically inferior to athletes of 50 years later.

They are great because they were pioneers... I guess to use another analogy, take Jimi Hendrix. Widely lauded as the greatest guitarist of all time.... but since he died 40 years ago or so, guitarists have largely eclipsed the level of technical proficiency he had. Jimi was an awesome guitarist back in the day, no doubt the best at the time, but if you put him in a time machine and brought him to the present, his guitar skills wouldn't be anything special because there are literally 15 year old kids messing around in their rooms that have the guitar skill he has. Now without Jimi, they probably wouldn't even be playing guitar. And of course he deserves to be known as one of the greats because he was a true pioneer. But if you're talking head to head, no, because things improve with time.

[Beanflicker]

Also, I always found it weird that guys could say, with the same confidence that they would recite their birth date, that a guy like Leonard who they never actually saw fight, have no idea who 99% of his opponents were or if they were worth a shit, would whip a guy like Pernell who's brilliance we have all seen with our eyes. I saw one of Leonard's fights on youtube, and I gotta say I wasn't wowed by the guy. It probably was past his prime, but I didn't see anything that would give Pernell problems.

Think about it, if we could predict the outcome of a fight based on numbers and accomplishments, we'd all be multi-millionaires. You don't get to take a nice looking record or accolades with you into the ring. It's man vs man, ability vs ability.

[Spicoli]

Leonard was blue printing a Pernell before Whitakers Pappy was rolling in the backseat.

Oh for sure, I give big respect to the pioneers like Leonard who paved boxing's long highway and made it possible for guys like Whitaker, PBF, Roy Jones, ect to exist!

But we're talking WAY back in the day when boxing was still evolving, people were figuring out what worked and what didn't. Back when sport science was basically non existent and nutrition and training wasn't nearly as advanced as it is in modern times. Guys are bigger, stronger, faster and technique grew a great deal since.

So when people say stuff like Benny Leonard would kill Whitaker or Mosley... it's just unrealistic. If you had a time machine to go bring him (at his prime) to Pernell's time and have them fight, he wouldn't know what to make of Pernell (or Mosley).

Great for their time, but if you want to talk modern day, you can't compare a guy like
that.

I get where your coming from to a degree. Living it and seeing it is believing and like every aspect of day to day, we evolve, times change, we learn the value of thumbs etc. I def don't think he or anyone one would go killing today's fighters but likewise Leonard wouldn't be like some Neanderthal seeing a burning bush for the first time. He always struck me as ahead of his time and certainly wasn't a clubbing oof. The guy could box and very well. Unlike a Greb where we can only speculate, we're fortunate to have footage however "old". Looking past the grain and black & white its as clear as day. Its one lifetime ago not a complete relic found in ice. Its touchable. Science, nutrition, rules, boxing politricks etc have certainly changed. More so when talking Whitaker, Holyfield camp. under water weight resistance training ffs?! Training habits as well but where guys work in a gym or swat training pads much more today, fighters simply fought fights then. Something to be said for the constant activity level then. They'd look at those giant pillows and a 10-12 round cap among other things and scoff. As advanced as we fancy ourselves and as far as they've come it's still the hurt business and even the slickest have a ill caveman at the core. It's what pulled Whitaker out of the fire once or twice himself. Today's fighters and the ever growing number of spoon fed divas could learn ALOT from fighters of old. In the ring as well as outside of it.

[Beanflicker]

I get where your coming from to a degree. Living it and seeing it is believing and like every aspect of day to day, we evolve, times change, we learn the value of thumbs etc. I def don't think he or anyone one would go killing today's fighters but likewise Leonard wouldn't be like some Neanderthal seeing a burning bush for the first time. He always struck me as ahead of his time and certainly wasn't a clubbing oof. The guy could box and very well. Unlike a Greb where we can only speculate, we're fortunate to have footage however "old". Looking past the grain and black & white its as clear as day. Its one lifetime ago not a complete relic found in ice. Its touchable. Science, nutrition, rules, boxing politricks etc have certainly changed. More so when talking Whitaker, Holyfield camp. under water weight resistance training ffs?! Training habits as well but where guys work in a gym or swat training pads much more today, fighters simply fought fights then. Something to be said for the constant activity level then. They'd look at those giant pillows and a 10-12 round cap among other things and scoff. As advanced as we fancy ourselves and as far as they've come it's still the hurt business and even the slickest have a ill caveman at the core. It's what pulled Whitaker out of the fire once or twice himself. Today's fighters and the ever growing number of spoon fed divas could learn ALOT from fighters of old. In the ring as well as outside of it.

Yeah, it'll always be hard to compare because they are just completely different worlds.

I do think that the fact that old timer's fought more often gets overblown in terms of importance. While I do agree that it gave guys more experience to perfect their craft... in terms of quality of opponents, these HUGE resumes are padded with stiffs, complete throwaway fights. Ray Robinson won 173 fights, which is a crazy number for sure, but how many of those 173 fights were top-quality opponents? I'd go out on a limb and say it's a very small fraction. Guys had to fight 200 times because they had to, not because they were brave he-men who wanted to. If SRR or Benny Leonard could have made a couple million for one fight, they'd only fight once or twice a year too.

[greynotsoold]

I get where your coming from to a degree. Living it and seeing it is believing and like every aspect of day to day, we evolve, times change, we learn the value of thumbs etc. I def don't think he or anyone one would go killing today's fighters but likewise Leonard wouldn't be like some Neanderthal seeing a burning bush for the first time. He always struck me as ahead of his time and certainly wasn't a clubbing oof. The guy could box and very well. Unlike a Greb where we can only speculate, we're fortunate to have footage however "old". Looking past the grain and black & white its as clear as day. Its one lifetime ago not a complete relic found in ice. Its touchable. Science, nutrition, rules, boxing politricks etc have certainly changed. More so when talking Whitaker, Holyfield camp. under water weight resistance training ffs?! Training habits as well but where guys work in a gym or swat training pads much more today, fighters simply fought fights then. Something to be said for the constant activity level then. They'd look at those giant pillows and a 10-12 round cap among other things and scoff. As advanced as we fancy ourselves and as far as they've come it's still the hurt business and even the slickest have a ill caveman at the core. It's what pulled Whitaker out of the fire once or twice himself. Today's fighters and the ever growing number of spoon fed divas could learn ALOT from fighters of old. In the ring as well as outside of it.

Yeah, it'll always be hard to compare because they are just completely different worlds.

I do think that the fact that old timer's fought more often gets overblown in terms of importance. While I do agree that it gave guys more experience to perfect their craft... in terms of quality of opponents, these HUGE resumes are padded with stiffs, complete throwaway fights. Ray Robinson won 173 fights, which is a crazy number for sure, but how many of those 173 fights were top-quality opponents? I'd go out on a limb and say it's a very small fraction. Guys had to fight 200 times because they had to, not because they were brave he-men who wanted to. If SRR or Benny Leonard could have made a couple million for one fight, they'd only fight once or twice a year too.

Modern guys fight 35 times in a career and they fight hardly any quality opponents. You figure that the first 18-20 are set-ups to pad the record, then you fight 'quality opponents' that try for 2 rounds, then you fights contenders that are half your size, then fight 'champions' that have been brought along the same way.
So even when you fight another "champion" you're fighting another guy that has never been in a fight in his life.
And you would be WAY out on a limb re: Robinson's record.

[Beanflicker]

And you would be WAY out on a limb re: Robinson's record.

Ok well let's make a list of his toughest opponents. I'll just put the guys I know, you can add some if you feel I missed somebody or if I wrongly included someone.

Jake Lamotta
Henry Armstong
Kid Galivan
Bobo Olsen
Randy Turpin
Rocky Graziano
Joey Maxim
Carmen Basilio
Gene Fulmer

There's 9 guys I know are considered great, or at least solid fighters. It's possible I skipped over a name, but his other opponents I know nothing about.

I'll give him credit for 3 Lamotta fights (that's 12), two Gene Fulmer fights (that's 13), two Turpin's fights (14) and two Basilio fights (15). So by my calculations (which could change), I have Robinson fighting 15 legit fights out of 200 total. That's 7.5% of his fights.

That's based on how people judge records now. For instance, I only credited 3 Lamotta fights because nobody would get credit for beating the same guy 5 full times. If Floyd fought and beat Cotto another 4 times, would people care?

[Beanflicker]

That's going on name recognition alone though. I'm not even questioning the quality of the opponents or the timeframe that he fought them in (for example, I think Armstrong was 35 years old and a year or two away from retirement when they fought. He was also a blown up LW fighting a legit big WW in SRR).

[IamInuit]

And you would be WAY out on a limb re: Robinson's record.

Ok well let's make a list of his toughest opponents. I'll just put the guys I know, you can add some if you feel I missed somebody or if I wrongly included someone.

Jake Lamotta
Henry Armstong
Kid Galivan
Bobo Olsen
Randy Turpin
Rocky Graziano
Joey Maxim
Carmen Basilio
Gene Fulmer

There's 9 guys I know are considered great, or at least solid fighters. It's possible I skipped over a name, but his other opponents I know nothing about.

I'll give him credit for 3 Lamotta fights (that's 12), two Gene Fulmer fights (that's 13), two Turpin's fights (14) and two Basilio fights (15). So by my calculations (which could change), I have Robinson fighting 15 legit fights out of 200 total. That's 7.5% of his fights.

That's based on how people judge records now. For instance, I only credited 3 Lamotta fights because nobody would get credit for beating the same guy 5 full times. If Floyd fought and beat Cotto another 4 times, would people care?

Langford fought Wills about 20 times not because he wanted to but because he had to. Burley and the rest of Murderers row fought each other about 10 times each. Not because they wanted to but because they had to. They fought to survive. It does not take away how good they were. Nobody was making 40 million a fight and taking 2 years off in between. Robinson fought these guys more then once because they remained at the top of the food chain and kept getting in line.There was no other belt to be had. I do think tbh that Robinson overlooked the Murderers Row and only fought Wade after he had been retired for two years. I'm sure that money which runs the show today once Robinson was at the top had something to do with it. Of course there are exceptions like two guys not being able to get their ducks in a row for 50 million a piece while the world blames just about everybody else. Fighting people multiple times today wont wash because we live in an instant gratification society. Boxing in many ways resembles a drive through fast food joint. And people change those because somebody forgot to put ketchup in the bag. You lose once today and a certain segment of the boxing viewership
throws you to the wolves. Considering the sport, that in and of itself is disturbing. People lost more in past eras because they fought once every two weeks with many receiving the call the night before. That shit was common place. Its why guys that go 128-1-2 with 84 knockouts got noticed. Of course the 85 and 0 as an amateur with over 40 first round knockouts didn't hurt.

Robinson fought 18 world champions and beat 12 hall of famers in an era of 1 champion per division not 10.

[greynotsoold]

You forgot a few...Holly Mims, Aaron Wade, Rocky Castellani, Ralph Dupas, Bobo Olson, Jose Basora, Charlie Fusari, Steve Belloise, Kid Gavilan, Bernard Docusen, Tommy Bell, Sammy Angott, Henry Armstrong, Fritzie Zivic, and Marty Servo.
He fought Izzy Janazzo a whole bunch of times, and Jannazzo had a final record of 63(8 kos)-45 (stopped 6 times, three by Robinson, one in his last fight), which isn't much. Until you look at his record and the quality of guys he was fighting, many of them several times, and losing close fights to and you can tell that he could fight more than a little bit.
Look at Robinson's record and how early on he was fighting guys like Angott and Zivic and Servo and you can see he wasn't ever taking easy fights.

[Spicoli]

I get where your coming from to a degree. Living it and seeing it is believing and like every aspect of day to day, we evolve, times change, we learn the value of thumbs etc. I def don't think he or anyone one would go killing today's fighters but likewise Leonard wouldn't be like some Neanderthal seeing a burning bush for the first time. He always struck me as ahead of his time and certainly wasn't a clubbing oof. The guy could box and very well. Unlike a Greb where we can only speculate, we're fortunate to have footage however "old". Looking past the grain and black & white its as clear as day. Its one lifetime ago not a complete relic found in ice. Its touchable. Science, nutrition, rules, boxing politricks etc have certainly changed. More so when talking Whitaker, Holyfield camp. under water weight resistance training ffs?! Training habits as well but where guys work in a gym or swat training pads much more today, fighters simply fought fights then. Something to be said for the constant activity level then. They'd look at those giant pillows and a 10-12 round cap among other things and scoff. As advanced as we fancy ourselves and as far as they've come it's still the hurt business and even the slickest have a ill caveman at the core. It's what pulled Whitaker out of the fire once or twice himself. Today's fighters and the ever growing number of spoon fed divas could learn ALOT from fighters of old. In the ring as well as outside of it.

Yeah, it'll always be hard to compare because they are just completely different worlds.

I do think that the fact that old timer's fought more often gets overblown in terms of importance. While I do agree that it gave guys more experience to perfect their craft... in terms of quality of opponents, these HUGE resumes are padded with stiffs, complete throwaway fights. Ray Robinson won 173 fights, which is a crazy number for sure, but how many of those 173 fights were top-quality opponents? I'd go out on a limb and say it's a very small fraction. Guys had to fight 200 times because they had to, not because they were brave he-men who wanted to. If SRR or Benny Leonard could have made a couple million for one fight, they'd only fight once or twice a year too.

Thats the great thing today, we have the records to scrutinize much easier because we lived it, live action. I can look at a record from another era and relate only to whats been observed by others and the few we are fortunate to see but we're still seeing it after the fact and in a broken random order. Rambling here man. Long day.

I think the records and numbers can all be very similiar for the most part, kept in perspective with amount fought. All fighters, ALL, have had there fill of cannon fodder and some have more padding than a High School Prom. I mean Leonard though massivly active like many then had the same pace as alot of big names today in regards to a major title. Mosley, Jones jr, Mayweather etc. Almost four, four and a half yrs and they faced some clay pigeons too. Mosley had more cans than a recycling center before his trinket. Today watching a young groomed superstars knock over some guys with the skill of a crash test dummy can be hard to stomach. Guys had to fight very true but it evened out with those considered 'great' over time. Its in large part a generational thing.