Duran vs Whitaker, prime vs prime at LW

[greynotsoold]

I get where your coming from to a degree. Living it and seeing it is believing and like every aspect of day to day, we evolve, times change, we learn the value of thumbs etc. I def don't think he or anyone one would go killing today's fighters but likewise Leonard wouldn't be like some Neanderthal seeing a burning bush for the first time. He always struck me as ahead of his time and certainly wasn't a clubbing oof. The guy could box and very well. Unlike a Greb where we can only speculate, we're fortunate to have footage however "old". Looking past the grain and black & white its as clear as day. Its one lifetime ago not a complete relic found in ice. Its touchable. Science, nutrition, rules, boxing politricks etc have certainly changed. More so when talking Whitaker, Holyfield camp. under water weight resistance training ffs?! Training habits as well but where guys work in a gym or swat training pads much more today, fighters simply fought fights then. Something to be said for the constant activity level then. They'd look at those giant pillows and a 10-12 round cap among other things and scoff. As advanced as we fancy ourselves and as far as they've come it's still the hurt business and even the slickest have a ill caveman at the core. It's what pulled Whitaker out of the fire once or twice himself. Today's fighters and the ever growing number of spoon fed divas could learn ALOT from fighters of old. In the ring as well as outside of it.

Yeah, it'll always be hard to compare because they are just completely different worlds.

I do think that the fact that old timer's fought more often gets overblown in terms of importance. While I do agree that it gave guys more experience to perfect their craft... in terms of quality of opponents, these HUGE resumes are padded with stiffs, complete throwaway fights. Ray Robinson won 173 fights, which is a crazy number for sure, but how many of those 173 fights were top-quality opponents? I'd go out on a limb and say it's a very small fraction. Guys had to fight 200 times because they had to, not because they were brave he-men who wanted to. If SRR or Benny Leonard could have made a couple million for one fight, they'd only fight once or twice a year too.

Modern guys fight 35 times in a career and they fight hardly any quality opponents. You figure that the first 18-20 are set-ups to pad the record, then you fight 'quality opponents' that try for 2 rounds, then you fights contenders that are half your size, then fight 'champions' that have been brought along the same way.
So even when you fight another "champion" you're fighting another guy that has never been in a fight in his life.
And you would be WAY out on a limb re: Robinson's record.

[Beanflicker]

And you would be WAY out on a limb re: Robinson's record.

Ok well let's make a list of his toughest opponents. I'll just put the guys I know, you can add some if you feel I missed somebody or if I wrongly included someone.

Jake Lamotta
Henry Armstong
Kid Galivan
Bobo Olsen
Randy Turpin
Rocky Graziano
Joey Maxim
Carmen Basilio
Gene Fulmer

There's 9 guys I know are considered great, or at least solid fighters. It's possible I skipped over a name, but his other opponents I know nothing about.

I'll give him credit for 3 Lamotta fights (that's 12), two Gene Fulmer fights (that's 13), two Turpin's fights (14) and two Basilio fights (15). So by my calculations (which could change), I have Robinson fighting 15 legit fights out of 200 total. That's 7.5% of his fights.

That's based on how people judge records now. For instance, I only credited 3 Lamotta fights because nobody would get credit for beating the same guy 5 full times. If Floyd fought and beat Cotto another 4 times, would people care?

[Beanflicker]

That's going on name recognition alone though. I'm not even questioning the quality of the opponents or the timeframe that he fought them in (for example, I think Armstrong was 35 years old and a year or two away from retirement when they fought. He was also a blown up LW fighting a legit big WW in SRR).

[IamInuit]

And you would be WAY out on a limb re: Robinson's record.

Ok well let's make a list of his toughest opponents. I'll just put the guys I know, you can add some if you feel I missed somebody or if I wrongly included someone.

Jake Lamotta
Henry Armstong
Kid Galivan
Bobo Olsen
Randy Turpin
Rocky Graziano
Joey Maxim
Carmen Basilio
Gene Fulmer

There's 9 guys I know are considered great, or at least solid fighters. It's possible I skipped over a name, but his other opponents I know nothing about.

I'll give him credit for 3 Lamotta fights (that's 12), two Gene Fulmer fights (that's 13), two Turpin's fights (14) and two Basilio fights (15). So by my calculations (which could change), I have Robinson fighting 15 legit fights out of 200 total. That's 7.5% of his fights.

That's based on how people judge records now. For instance, I only credited 3 Lamotta fights because nobody would get credit for beating the same guy 5 full times. If Floyd fought and beat Cotto another 4 times, would people care?

Langford fought Wills about 20 times not because he wanted to but because he had to. Burley and the rest of Murderers row fought each other about 10 times each. Not because they wanted to but because they had to. They fought to survive. It does not take away how good they were. Nobody was making 40 million a fight and taking 2 years off in between. Robinson fought these guys more then once because they remained at the top of the food chain and kept getting in line.There was no other belt to be had. I do think tbh that Robinson overlooked the Murderers Row and only fought Wade after he had been retired for two years. I'm sure that money which runs the show today once Robinson was at the top had something to do with it. Of course there are exceptions like two guys not being able to get their ducks in a row for 50 million a piece while the world blames just about everybody else. Fighting people multiple times today wont wash because we live in an instant gratification society. Boxing in many ways resembles a drive through fast food joint. And people change those because somebody forgot to put ketchup in the bag. You lose once today and a certain segment of the boxing viewership
throws you to the wolves. Considering the sport, that in and of itself is disturbing. People lost more in past eras because they fought once every two weeks with many receiving the call the night before. That shit was common place. Its why guys that go 128-1-2 with 84 knockouts got noticed. Of course the 85 and 0 as an amateur with over 40 first round knockouts didn't hurt.

Robinson fought 18 world champions and beat 12 hall of famers in an era of 1 champion per division not 10.

[greynotsoold]

You forgot a few...Holly Mims, Aaron Wade, Rocky Castellani, Ralph Dupas, Bobo Olson, Jose Basora, Charlie Fusari, Steve Belloise, Kid Gavilan, Bernard Docusen, Tommy Bell, Sammy Angott, Henry Armstrong, Fritzie Zivic, and Marty Servo.
He fought Izzy Janazzo a whole bunch of times, and Jannazzo had a final record of 63(8 kos)-45 (stopped 6 times, three by Robinson, one in his last fight), which isn't much. Until you look at his record and the quality of guys he was fighting, many of them several times, and losing close fights to and you can tell that he could fight more than a little bit.
Look at Robinson's record and how early on he was fighting guys like Angott and Zivic and Servo and you can see he wasn't ever taking easy fights.

[Beanflicker]

You forgot a few...Holly Mims, Aaron Wade, Rocky Castellani, Ralph Dupas, Bobo Olson, Jose Basora, Charlie Fusari, Steve Belloise, Kid Gavilan, Bernard Docusen, Tommy Bell, Sammy Angott, Henry Armstrong, Fritzie Zivic, and Marty Servo.
He fought Izzy Janazzo a whole bunch of times, and Jannazzo had a final record of 63(8 kos)-45 (stopped 6 times, three by Robinson, one in his last fight), which isn't much. Until you look at his record and the quality of guys he was fighting, many of them several times, and losing close fights to and you can tell that he could fight more than a little bit.
Look at Robinson's record and how early on he was fighting guys like Angott and Zivic and Servo and you can see he wasn't ever taking easy fights.

Ok I'll take your word for it and add the 10 extra guys I never mentioned (I have to question how good a 63-45 record fighter is but ok).

Thats 25 legit fights out of 200, which is up to 12.5%.

Lets take a look at a modern great, Floyd Mayweather.

Genaro Hernandez
Angel Manfredy
Diego Corrales
Jesus Chavez
Jose Luis Castillo twice
Arturo Gatti (if Jannazzo is added, surely we can add Gatti)
Sharmba Mitchell (Manny Stewart picked Sharmba to beat Floyd)
Zab Judah
De La Hoya
Ricky Hatton
Juan Manuel Marquez
Shane Mosley
Cotto
Alvarez (coming up)

That's being less than generous, leaving out a host of tough champs he fought like Ortiz, Guerrero, ect. You can tell me if you think any of these guys shouldn't be included. I put Sharmba in there mainly on the basis of Stewart's prediction so he can go.

But as it stands now, that's 33% for Floyd (so roughly 1/3) and 10 less than SRR, which is pretty surprising considering Floyd has less than 1/4th the number of fights that SRR had.

[Kirkland Laing]

I honestly think there was a lot higher level of competition back in the SRR era than there is now. There were more professional fighters in New York than there are registered in the entire world today and they were literally coming from hunger. No crybabies quitting fights because they got a booboo on their eye or at least nobody anywhere near world level.

Give those old timers modern nutrition and training and you could count the number of modern-day guys who could hang with them without having to take your shoes and socks off.

[p4pking]

I honestly think there was a lot higher level of competition back in the SRR era than there is now. There were more professional fighters in New York than there are registered in the entire world today and they were literally coming from hunger. No crybabies quitting fights because they got a booboo on their eye or at least nobody anywhere near world level.

Give those old timers modern nutrition and training and you could count the number of modern-day guys who could hang with them without having to take your shoes and socks off.

So on one hand, you can attribute a guy's toughness to coming from hunger, and at the same time "give him modern nutrition and training" and he'd be a better fighter? I think a certain measure of both is always neccesary to produce a top fighter in any era, this arguement really doesn't work imo.

[Beanflicker]

I honestly think there was a lot higher level of competition back in the SRR era than there is now. There were more professional fighters in New York than there are registered in the entire world today and they were literally coming from hunger. No crybabies quitting fights because they got a booboo on their eye or at least nobody anywhere near world level.

Give those old timers modern nutrition and training and you could count the number of modern-day guys who could hang with them without having to take your shoes and socks off.

Meh I think that's a "rose-colored glasses" view of it if I ever heard one.

I don't buy the thought that they were so much tougher back then, either. There are cowards and warriors from every generation. A few weeks ago I watched Dennis Lebedev plod forward with the most fucked up facial injuries I've ever seen in a boxing ring.
A warrior's heart is something you're born with, and there are still tons of boxers today who came from absolutely nothing with the hunger to make something of themselves.

We hear all this hyperbole about the old school guys, but when you put that aside and actually watch a guy like Bobo Olsen, Gene Fullmer, Carmen Basilio... they were nothing special. These guys weren't the omnipotent demigods that boxing "experts" would have us believe. It's all about context.