"Athleticism" As An Attribute In Boxing

[greynotsoold]

I don't think it has to do so much with reflexes, in any sport. I've been reading about how a batter, in baseball, from experience, learns to predict the pitch at the top of the pitcher's delivery. This happens in tennis and other sports, and it happens in boxing.
I don't think that the ability to run faster or jump higher helps in boxing (other than in dire emergencies)...Boxing is a pretty specialized thing in that it happens under fire; you get hurt right now if you are wrong.That is a pretty special condition that affects a lot of individuals and their athleticism.

[Rantcatrat]

I don't think it has to do so much with reflexes, in any sport. I've been reading about how a batter, in baseball, from experience, learns to predict the pitch at the top of the pitcher's delivery. This happens in tennis and other sports, and it happens in boxing.
I don't think that the ability to run faster or jump higher helps in boxing (other than in dire emergencies)...Boxing is a pretty specialized thing in that it happens under fire; you get hurt right now if you are wrong.That is a pretty special condition that affects a lot of individuals and their athleticism.

How about quickness of punch and strength of punch? I would also argue that in boxing reflexes to get away from punches, while it is possible to learn to an extent, better reflexes mean more likely getting away from a punch, especially from faster boxers.

[DavilaJones]

I would attribute it to things that would be important in all sports:

Hands & Eyes Coordination
Balance
Endurance
Strength
Speed of mind and of body

[greynotsoold]

As a reply to several comments...
-RJJ relied on his athleticism, his reflexes, etc...he oriented them to boxing, and he fired his father for insisting he learn how to fight. He slowed down, he became a target with no chin, no heart, nothing to work with.
-Hopkins, on the other hand, had the heart to be a fighter. he focused the skills he had- had he focused them otherwise, maybe he could have beat Jones at basketball-and he had the heart to be a fighter. he learned and that skill has surpassed his athleticism and made him more money than his physicality ever did.
-reflexes will screw you. The whole motion of you avoiding an opponent's punch and countering it isn't based on you being faster. Ever wonder why so many fast guys hit an opponent so many clean shots and he's still there? It is like playing a 45 RPM record (??) at 78, it is out of time. You have to time your opponent.
-hand eye co-ordination does not necessarily translate. Just because you can hit a fastball does not mean you can slip and counter a jab. A guy, in 2006, brought his son to me, an all star Baseball player and a scratch level golfer. he was sure his son could fight- and I guess he could, big and strong he'd beat most of his peers. But to teach him to box...Balance is sport specific because you use your feet very differently.

[Rantcatrat]

As a reply to several comments...
-RJJ relied on his athleticism, his reflexes, etc...he oriented them to boxing, and he fired his father for insisting he learn how to fight. He slowed down, he became a target with no chin, no heart, nothing to work with.
-Hopkins, on the other hand, had the heart to be a fighter. he focused the skills he had- had he focused them otherwise, maybe he could have beat Jones at basketball-and he had the heart to be a fighter. he learned and that skill has surpassed his athleticism and made him more money than his physicality ever did.
-reflexes will screw you. The whole motion of you avoiding an opponent's punch and countering it isn't based on you being faster. Ever wonder why so many fast guys hit an opponent so many clean shots and he's still there? It is like playing a 45 RPM record (??) at 78, it is out of time. You have to time your opponent.
-hand eye co-ordination does not necessarily translate. Just because you can hit a fastball does not mean you can slip and counter a jab. A guy, in 2006, brought his son to me, an all star Baseball player and a scratch level golfer. he was sure his son could fight- and I guess he could, big and strong he'd beat most of his peers. But to teach him to box...Balance is sport specific because you use your feet very differently.

Are you suggesting that athleticism, however we define it, doesn't play a role in making a successful boxer?

Can a great trainer create a beautiful boxer who doesn't have a ton of athletic ability? Absolutely. If you are arguing skill is more important than athleticism in boxing, you won't get much argument from me, but most of the time, the elite guys have something special athletically. Perhaps it is god-given punching power, or incredible reflexes, or amazing sense of depth, or really fast hands, but usually there is an athletic quality or two that make a fighter special.

[ray corso]

Its a huge plus for certain fighters. I think of Ray Leonard when discussing this! Ray was in my gym for his 5 or 6th fight (New Haven Ct) and he was an outstandng athlete able to tumble on matts and run and jump like a deer!
Eye hand coordination is a huge advantage to have in any sport and in boxing the boys with hand speed all have it!!
There are successful men that aren't equiped with these gifts that have done very well but why not have as much advantage as you can!!! Big + for athleticim in my experiences! Ray

[greynotsoold]

As a reply to several comments...
-RJJ relied on his athleticism, his reflexes, etc...he oriented them to boxing, and he fired his father for insisting he learn how to fight. He slowed down, he became a target with no chin, no heart, nothing to work with.
-Hopkins, on the other hand, had the heart to be a fighter. he focused the skills he had- had he focused them otherwise, maybe he could have beat Jones at basketball-and he had the heart to be a fighter. he learned and that skill has surpassed his athleticism and made him more money than his physicality ever did.
-reflexes will screw you. The whole motion of you avoiding an opponent's punch and countering it isn't based on you being faster. Ever wonder why so many fast guys hit an opponent so many clean shots and he's still there? It is like playing a 45 RPM record (??) at 78, it is out of time. You have to time your opponent.
-hand eye co-ordination does not necessarily translate. Just because you can hit a fastball does not mean you can slip and counter a jab. A guy, in 2006, brought his son to me, an all star Baseball player and a scratch level golfer. he was sure his son could fight- and I guess he could, big and strong he'd beat most of his peers. But to teach him to box...Balance is sport specific because you use your feet very differently.

Are you suggesting that athleticism, however we define it, doesn't play a role in making a successful boxer?

Can a great trainer create a beautiful boxer who doesn't have a ton of athletic ability? Absolutely. If you are arguing skill is more important than athleticism in boxing, you won't get much argument from me, but most of the time, the elite guys have something special athletically. Perhaps it is god-given punching power, or incredible reflexes, or amazing sense of depth, or really fast hands, but usually there is an athletic quality or two that make a fighter special.

You are on to it there. there is innate power in boxing, just like in baseball. you can improve it, but some guys are born with it, but that, in and of itself, doesn't make you great, in either activity. reflexes are sport specific; some people are more pre disposed to pick up that skill quickly than are others. fast hands... give me a few days and i can give you freaking FAST hands, not to mention power that you won't understand. Because I know how to teach your feet and your hips and your shoulders. It isn't hard.
But the thing I am getting at is this...The quality to not only know how to punch hard, slip, bob weave, counter, all that, but to do it with an equally skilled and trained opponent trying to knock you out. And not only that, but, if you are really good, to deliberately expose yourself with the idea that it makes him easier to hit. THAt requires a mind set that is very rare, a willingness to expose one's self to harm that isn't common.

[Rantcatrat]

As a reply to several comments...
-RJJ relied on his athleticism, his reflexes, etc...he oriented them to boxing, and he fired his father for insisting he learn how to fight. He slowed down, he became a target with no chin, no heart, nothing to work with.
-Hopkins, on the other hand, had the heart to be a fighter. he focused the skills he had- had he focused them otherwise, maybe he could have beat Jones at basketball-and he had the heart to be a fighter. he learned and that skill has surpassed his athleticism and made him more money than his physicality ever did.
-reflexes will screw you. The whole motion of you avoiding an opponent's punch and countering it isn't based on you being faster. Ever wonder why so many fast guys hit an opponent so many clean shots and he's still there? It is like playing a 45 RPM record (??) at 78, it is out of time. You have to time your opponent.
-hand eye co-ordination does not necessarily translate. Just because you can hit a fastball does not mean you can slip and counter a jab. A guy, in 2006, brought his son to me, an all star Baseball player and a scratch level golfer. he was sure his son could fight- and I guess he could, big and strong he'd beat most of his peers. But to teach him to box...Balance is sport specific because you use your feet very differently.

Are you suggesting that athleticism, however we define it, doesn't play a role in making a successful boxer?

Can a great trainer create a beautiful boxer who doesn't have a ton of athletic ability? Absolutely. If you are arguing skill is more important than athleticism in boxing, you won't get much argument from me, but most of the time, the elite guys have something special athletically. Perhaps it is god-given punching power, or incredible reflexes, or amazing sense of depth, or really fast hands, but usually there is an athletic quality or two that make a fighter special.

You are on to it there. there is innate power in boxing, just like in baseball. you can improve it, but some guys are born with it, but that, in and of itself, doesn't make you great, in either activity. reflexes are sport specific; some people are more pre disposed to pick up that skill quickly than are others. fast hands... give me a few days and i can give you freaking FAST hands, not to mention power that you won't understand. Because I know how to teach your feet and your hips and your shoulders. It isn't hard.
But the thing I am getting at is this...The quality to not only know how to punch hard, slip, bob weave, counter, all that, but to do it with an equally skilled and trained opponent trying to knock you out. And not only that, but, if you are really good, to deliberately expose yourself with the idea that it makes him easier to hit. THAt requires a mind set that is very rare, a willingness to expose one's self to harm that isn't common.

I understand where you're coming from. I guess I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

Gray - but you have to admit that there some people have faster hands than others, right? Also, are you suggesting that a "faster" boxer is typically one who knows how to combine the "feet, hips and shoulder movement" better than someone else?

[Vendettos]

To an extent athleticism is a natural ability, Fury has little, Haye has a lot. Cotto has some, Mayweather has more.

Flexibility, speed, agility, natural strength (not to be confused with power of punch).

Too many aspects to note.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

I would attribute it to things that would be important in all sports:

Hands & Eyes Coordination
Balance
Endurance
Strength
Speed of mind and of body

Basically, this.

Athleticism is a broad term but basically means they have some or all physical gifts that translate from sport to sport.

It could be an absolute term or a relative term.

For example, you can tell that Wladimir Klitschko would do better in more sports compared to other modern heavyweights

You have guys like a young Ali or, who were fast and, maybe more importantly incredibly balletic.
Plus you also had guys like Mike Tyson, who had extraordinary speed and power. Plus considerable upper-body movement)

Then you had guys like Manny and Roy who just put it all together.