Are you for or against intervening in Syria?

[Kirkland Laing]

He may manage to get all of Syria's chemical weapons destroyed without firing a shot. That seems to me to be a pretty good outcome.

And Syria are going to be one of the last few countries to sign the international treaty that bans chemical weapons. Now that Obama has got Syria to sign does anybody think he'll put pressure to sign it on other rogue nations like North Korea and Israel?

[walrus]

with all due respect, Obama lost face in the international community. Obama is Carter no. 2 how can you call Israel a rogue nation. There enemies will not negotiate until Israel is driven into the sea. Putin sells Five billions a year in weapons to Syria. Syria will maintain stockpiles and Putin will make sure of that.

[Gandalf]

Israel is clearly a rogue state. Just look at the siege of Gaza and the Flotilla massacre as obvious examples. Israel is CLEARLY a rogue state and is funded and supported by the worlds leading financier of rogue states, Captain Rogue America.

I think what has been shown is that Assad has still not been proven to be the chemical attacker and so having to give up chemical weapons is hypocritical considering that America is not doing so and it isn't even being suggested that Israel should do so either. Simply owning chemical weapons is a crime under international law and so how you can have America who has used nukes and chemical weapons have anything to do with this is an absurdity.

The entire issue is a joke. Walrus, I agree with you that Obama looks like a joke, but America has had no face for decades now. America in the eyes of global opinion is the menace. Just look at opinion polls from different countries and their attitudes towards America. Putin sells weapons to Syria. Well, Obama funds Israel and Egypt amongst others, has hundreds of military bases in dozens of countries. Assad has commited crimes, but no worse than Egypt or Israel, and they don't get threatened, they get actively funded and the US will even hand over private data about American people (and likely anyone) over to Israel as part of the bargain.

Rogue nations are alive and well and they are spying on everything which of course is being swept under the microscope as Syria is being used as a distraction.

[VictorCharlie]

The President will take credit for the diplomatic results but lets be honest, he got his hand forced to not use military force by overwhelming public opinion in the US and being out maneuvered by Putin/Assad. If the administration had gotten their way we would be engaged militarily in the Syrian civil war.

On a side note, what is a rogue nation? This sounds like another one of your made up terms like illegal war.

[Gandalf]

The President will take credit for the diplomatic results but lets be honest, he got his hand forced to not use military force by overwhelming public opinion in the US and being out maneuvered by Putin/Assad. If the administration had gotten their way we would be engaged militarily in the Syrian civil war.

On a side note, what is a rogue nation? This sounds like another one of your made up terms like illegal war.

Illegal wars are those of aggression and moreso based upon outright fraud and lies. Rogue nation fits nations that routinely ignore international law. The US, Britain and Israel are the obvious examples. Only they can get away with the outrageous time and time again.

Many nations in the world are rogue, but some have a lot of influence. Rogue is forcing a state to give up weapons whilst having them too and never discussing removing them.

[Gandalf]

VanChild's you seldom fail to come across like a soldier who has studied at an American University. Any sensible person rejects all of that bullshit. Maybe you need time.

The Iraq war was illegal and still you went there. You didn't give a hoot about this stuff then. The illegality was obvious. A war of agression, based on what were complete lies. You were there, and you always get shirty when questioned on these terms.

Nobody wants to be accused of being a blind follower of the orders of Cheney and Bush, but that is what it was. You took part in an act of aggression and dislike hearing about rogue states.

You should have chosen your profession more carefully. My rhetoric is fine and is the same as always. Unlike yours in Iraq which finally you agreed was a mess after all your defending.

[VictorCharlie]

Finally agreed? I've always maintained we shouldn't have gone to Iraq. You on the other hand have never been able to explain how/when war is legal or illegal. So again what legal document dictates when war is legal or illegal for the world and what legal body rules on these things? Mind you we've already covered that the UN charter is not international law. Act of aggression? That describes all war. The UN does nothing more than take a popularity vote and even then the security council simply votes against each other. The whole thing is a farce. You pick and choose when you want to champion the UN but since that is the standard you want to go buy according to the UN, Saddam and Iraq violated multiple resolutions passed post Gulf War 1, namely they violated the no-fly zone and fired on US aircraft patrolling the no fly zone. I personally don't think either of these justify OIF and obviously GW provided these in conjunction w/poorly vetted intelligence on WMD. I don't call you on using silly phrases b/c I'm defensive about my participation but b/c your arguments are intellectually dishonest. I don't feel any need to apologize or defend my time in Iraq b/c unlike you who does nothing more than provide your faux outrage on the internet I spent most of my time in Iraq providing humanitarian aid.

So with that handled, again what is a rogue state?

[Kirkland Laing]

The President will take credit for the diplomatic results but lets be honest, he got his hand forced to not use military force by overwhelming public opinion in the US and being out maneuvered by Putin/Assad. If the administration had gotten their way we would be engaged militarily in the Syrian civil war.

On a side note, what is a rogue nation? This sounds like another one of your made up terms like illegal war.

A rogue nation is a nation that ignores the will of the international community and continues to do something the international community considers illegal. Like invading Iraq for instance.

[VictorCharlie]

A rogue nation is a nation that ignores the will of the international community and continues to do something the international community considers illegal. Like invading Iraq for instance.

So when a nation does what it thinks is in its best interest regardless of a international popularity contest its "rogue". Got it. Rogue nation is a dumb term. Iran, NK, Israel, Syria, China, US, UK and Russia aren't "rogue". They (or I should say their leaders) do what they think is in their best interests. Iran/NK think they should have nuclear capabilities, frankly I don't care nor do I blame them. Israel is surrounded by nations that would and have previously attacked them so I don't blame them for ensuring their own continued existance. China/US/Russia are all world powers that whether correctly or not believe they need to have hegemony over their proxies in order to prosper. There is nothing rogue about doing what we all do as humans every day and that is look out for #1.

[VictorCharlie]

I got a chuckle out of this.

[Gandalf]

A rogue nation is a nation that ignores the will of the international community and continues to do something the international community considers illegal. Like invading Iraq for instance.

So when a nation does what it thinks is in its best interest regardless of a international popularity contest its "rogue". Got it. Rogue nation is a dumb term. Iran, NK, Israel, Syria, China, US, UK and Russia aren't "rogue". They (or I should say their leaders) do what they think is in their best interests. Iran/NK think they should have nuclear capabilities, frankly I don't care nor do I blame them. Israel is surrounded by nations that would and have previously attacked them so I don't blame them for ensuring their own continued existance. China/US/Russia are all world powers that whether correctly or not believe they need to have hegemony over their proxies in order to prosper. There is nothing rogue about doing what we all do as humans every day and that is look out for #1.

America is rogue because of its foreign policy shockers largely executed in the past 50 years. You could argue that America is acting in its own interests and of course any nation would argue that. However, going off to Vietnam for instance and slaughtering 2 million people based upon lies is clearly leaning towards not only rogue, but plain demented. You see it in dozens of countries right across the globe be it invasion, leader assassination, arming of terrorists etc etc. America being a rogue state is putting it nicely, it is far worse than a rogue state I am sure in the eyes of the vast bulk of the world that has suffered at its hands.

Does Denmark behave like America? Does Switzerland? Does Canada? America is completely out of synch with relatively normal nations. Also you seem to understand the term rogue due to the types of nations you listed. Countries like Syria and Iran are nothing compared to the genocide nations like North Korea, America or those who still think concentration camps and apartheid are fashionable. There are plenty of rogue nations, but the leader is obviously America. I would imagine the numbers of people killed either directly or indirectly by America is greater than all those other countries you suggested combined. It is numerically even worse when you factor in how the place was created too. North Korea kills millions domestically, but the US did the same in its early years and then it went on to carry out the murder spree internationally. North Korea is relatively benign except for the occasional missile launch. Now the same could not in a million years be suggested of America.

America being angry with Syria or Iran is an absurdity considering everything that it is. It chooses to be rogue, it could always choose to be a normal nation, but instead it chooses exceptionalism, which is another word to describe an out of control psychopath.

[Kirkland Laing]

A rogue nation is a nation that ignores the will of the international community and continues to do something the international community considers illegal. Like invading Iraq for instance.

So when a nation does what it thinks is in its best interest regardless of a international popularity contest its "rogue". Got it. Rogue nation is a dumb term. Iran, NK, Israel, Syria, China, US, UK and Russia aren't "rogue". They (or I should say their leaders) do what they think is in their best interests. Iran/NK think they should have nuclear capabilities, frankly I don't care nor do I blame them. Israel is surrounded by nations that would and have previously attacked them so I don't blame them for ensuring their own continued existance. China/US/Russia are all world powers that whether correctly or not believe they need to have hegemony over their proxies in order to prosper. There is nothing rogue about doing what we all do as humans every day and that is look out for #1.

Not an international popularity contest, an international treaty. Like the UN treaty. If you sign the UN treaty and then go off invading another country without agreement from the UN Security Council then you're going against the will of the international community and breaking the treaty you signed up to.

Or if you don't sign treaties that everybody else has signed up to like the chemical weapons treaty. Look at the small list of countries that haven't signed and you see the usual suspects when it comes to ignoring international law.

[Kirkland Laing]

with all due respect, Obama lost face in the international community. Obama is Carter no. 2 how can you call Israel a rogue nation. There enemies will not negotiate until Israel is driven into the sea. Putin sells Five billions a year in weapons to Syria. Syria will maintain stockpiles and Putin will make sure of that.

How did Obama lose face? Because he didn't get to bomb yet another country? And Obama unfortunately isn't a strong leader like Jimmy Carter.

Israel is a rogue nation because it ignores the will of international community in perpetuating a near half-century illegal military occupation of lands that are not theirs. They also refuse to abide by international standards and treaties over nuclear weapons, chemical weapons and so on. They've consistently ignored various comprehensive Arab peace settlements over the years so they can continue their slow-motion ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and Gaza.

[Beanz]

Miles you are a cowardly intellectual snob. Self righteous indignation is all well and good when you are sat behind your keyboard but you can not judge a man by ignoring the good he has done and then expect equivalent credit for doing fuck all yourself. Even the most ardent pacifist would not pretend that a career in the military is not a real job.

[VictorCharlie]

Its cool. I was a teacher before I got a real job running a bar but then my piss poor American education led me along with my genetically predisposed American past time of rape, pillage and genocide to being in the military. If only I could be as enlightened and informed as Miles.