Are you for or against intervening in Syria?

[Gandalf]

I have never gone into what are no more than the modern day equivalent of the crusades and that isn't cowardly in the slightest. Cowardly is signing up to do things that are wrong and making a living from it. A lot of people have been killed in overseas countries by US troops. Vietnam was supposedly over 2 million and granted many had no choice as they were forced to do it, but even then one should resist and go to prison instead. In these modern wars it is people who are in the military as a career choice. I don't see the point in skirting around the issue and not telling the truth. It isn't a noble and decent thing to sign up for the US military with all that it involves. It means selling out morally.

I don't see the need to defend my work as it is peaceful and there is no destruction or harm involved. If my conditions deteriorate then I will leave which is something I may well do come the end of the year, but it will have nothing to do with war crimes, murder, torture, or any of the other things that are synonymous with the US military. I have always been involved in work that doesn't harm and most would say the same. However, there are terrible corporations and one should morally not be involved with them too. Walmart is an obvious case in point. The NSA now is too on the suck list. In saying that there is no more terrible job than to be working in the military of the worlds leading sponsor of international terrorism.

You are supposed to mouse around and never point out the obvious and I find it amusing that I am painted as the big bad devil for pointing out the white elephant in the room. The US military sucks and anyone who signs up to become a trained killer is not like ordinary people who don't pick up guns, invade countries, and kill. It is an abberration and should be described as such and especially when it concerns the US military of the last decade. It is a monstrosity.

Having said that VC seems alright. However, reconciling the job is something I have never been able to do. I don't understand why anybody would train to kill other people. I'm not cowardly for thinking that way as I imagine many probably think the same way. Everybody likes to hammer teaching which is a benign and positive job, but you say anything about the values of people who sign up for the military as a safe job and you are satan. It just seems a bit absurd.

[Gandalf]

Anyway, I am sorry if I have offended you VC. This topic always seems to come up again and again. You seem like a decent sort, but then I contrast that with the job and I have trouble reconciling it. It boggles my mind why anyone would sell their labour to a military. In saying that people sell out all the time from CEO's who do bugger all, to pricks in the NSA, to private contractors who are essentially mercenaries etc etc. No hard feelings, though I am sure 3 month later when Syria is escalating I will be at it again!

Why couldn't you have just remained a steady teacher? I like teachers, it's a relatively honest sport. Mind you, I don't hear good things about teaching in the states. Seems like paperwork hell and little thanks, plus American kids, and budgets being stripped state to state.

[VictorCharlie]

No worries man. We've been doing this long enough I don't get too worked up about it. I liked teaching but I saw an opportunity to make better money in the booze business and then I just wanted more of a challenge in my life. The military provided that challenge. Being in a leadership position in the military is a lot like being a teacher. Something to consider Miles is that most people in the military will never spend one minute of their career hunting armed men. Their job has nothing to do with killing and more than likely they will never pull a trigger in anger. Frankly at close to 36 and with over a decade in uniform my days of kicking doors down are close to an end.

[walrus]

how do you define a democratic country as a rogue nation.

[IamInuit]

Clean up your own country. You have 20 thousand gun deaths a year while whining about some amendment written in ancient times and are a living breathing footprint for Einsteins definition of insanity. 40 million homeless.That is more then my country's population. Tell your clerics in political robes to quit saying you are exceptional. You are a failing State like Rome. Shit happens. Get your face out of other peoples business. Rake your own lawn.

[VictorCharlie]

Come on man at least know what you are talking about. The CDC has 11k homicides that were gun related in 2010. You can get over 20k if you add suicides but that isn't a gun control issue. More importantly the 40 million homeless is laughable. The number is obviously changing constantly but most professionals in the area say that there are 600-700k homeless at any given time with 1.5 million being homeless at one point or another annually. All that being said most of the US posters on the thread stated we should stay out of Syria so I'm not really sure who this rant is even addressing.

[Gandalf]

how do you define a democratic country as a rogue nation.

Firstly, I don't think anybody takes seriously the notion of America as a democratic nation. Sure, it has a voting system and you can vote every half decade, but to pretend that it is democratic is silly. It has the illusion of democracy, but fewer and fewer buy into the notion that politicians (aside from an obvious few) are anything more than corrupt careerists who are bought and paid for by corporations. You only have to look at the schism between what people want in polls and contrast that with the system that exists. What ordinary Americans want is largely ignored, a single payer health care system is an obvious case in point.

Secondly, the rogue elements are obvious domestically with mass surveillance of the population (Internet and phones), bailing out corrupt institutions, TSA thugs etc. Then of course you have overseas terrorism committed using US taxpayer money which is the real crime as tens of thousands die yearly because of US foreign policy. Those numbers include people killed in countries that the US sponsors, through nations invaded (Iraq recently saw 800 killed in a month and the US is clearly why Iraq is in a mess), through drone attacks on Pakistan. The list can go on, and then of course we have torture, detention without trial.

The latest is that America exchanges information about US citizens with Israel. Now what jurisdiction Israel has over America is beyond me. If that isn't a rogue state, then I am clearly living in the world of Winston Smith.

[VictorCharlie]

I'd argue that we have democracy but a facade of a constitutional republic. Democracy is nothing more than mob rule and I'd say that is a fair represention of our political system. I'm not really sure why you think there is a majority of American's that desire a single payer system for healthcare.

[Kirkland Laing]

Here's Vladimir Putin's take on international law and America's illegal acts. Regardless of what you think about Putin it's hard not to agree with what he has to say, right?

Sidebar. Fucking google is garbage now that they've tweaked their algorithms to make more advertising dollars. I looked for this op-ed for the previous post, gave up and then had another go. A couple of years ago it would have been the first hit.



A Plea for Caution From Russia

What Putin Has to Say to Americans About Syria

By VLADIMIR V. PUTIN

Published: September 11, 2013

MOSCOW — RECENT events surrounding Syria have prompted me to speak directly to the American people and their political leaders. It is important to do so at a time of insufficient communication between our societies.

Relations between us have passed through different stages. We stood against each other during the cold war. But we were also allies once, and defeated the Nazis together. The universal international organization — the United Nations — was then established to prevent such devastation from ever happening again.
The United Nations’ founders understood that decisions affecting war and peace should happen only by consensus, and with America’s consent the veto by Security Council permanent members was enshrined in the United Nations Charter. The profound wisdom of this has underpinned the stability of international relations for decades.
No one wants the United Nations to suffer the fate of the League of Nations, which collapsed because it lacked real leverage. This is possible if influential countries bypass the United Nations and take military action without Security Council authorization.
The potential strike by the United States against Syria, despite strong opposition from many countries and major political and religious leaders, including the pope, will result in more innocent victims and escalation, potentially spreading the conflict far beyond Syria’s borders. A strike would increase violence and unleash a new wave of terrorism. It could undermine multilateral efforts to resolve the Iranian nuclear problem and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and further destabilize the Middle East and North Africa. It could throw the entire system of international law and order out of balance.
Syria is not witnessing a battle for democracy, but an armed conflict between government and opposition in a multireligious country. There are few champions of democracy in Syria. But there are more than enough Qaeda fighters and extremists of all stripes battling the government. The United States State Department has designated Al Nusra Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, fighting with the opposition, as terrorist organizations. This internal conflict, fueled by foreign weapons supplied to the opposition, is one of the bloodiest in the world.
Mercenaries from Arab countries fighting there, and hundreds of militants from Western countries and even Russia, are an issue of our deep concern. Might they not return to our countries with experience acquired in Syria? After all, after fighting in Libya, extremists moved on to Mali. This threatens us all.
From the outset, Russia has advocated peaceful dialogue enabling Syrians to develop a compromise plan for their own future. We are not protecting the Syrian government, but international law. We need to use the United Nations Security Council and believe that preserving law and order in today’s complex and turbulent world is one of the few ways to keep international relations from sliding into chaos. The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not. Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression.
No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used not by the Syrian Army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists. Reports that militants are preparing another attack — this time against Israel — cannot be ignored.
It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States. Is it in America’s long-term interest? I doubt it. Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan “you’re either with us or against us.”
But force has proved ineffective and pointless. Afghanistan is reeling, and no one can say what will happen after international forces withdraw. Libya is divided into tribes and clans. In Iraq the civil war continues, with dozens killed each day. In the United States, many draw an analogy between Iraq and Syria, and ask why their government would want to repeat recent mistakes.
No matter how targeted the strikes or how sophisticated the weapons, civilian casualties are inevitable, including the elderly and children, whom the strikes are meant to protect.
The world reacts by asking: if you cannot count on international law, then you must find other ways to ensure your security. Thus a growing number of countries seek to acquire weapons of mass destruction. This is logical: if you have the bomb, no one will touch you. We are left with talk of the need to strengthen nonproliferation, when in reality this is being eroded.
We must stop using the language of force and return to the path of civilized diplomatic and political settlement.
A new opportunity to avoid military action has emerged in the past few days. The United States, Russia and all members of the international community must take advantage of the Syrian government’s willingness to place its chemical arsenal under international control for subsequent destruction. Judging by the statements of President Obama, the United States sees this as an alternative to military action.
I welcome the president’s interest in continuing the dialogue with Russia on Syria. We must work together to keep this hope alive, as we agreed to at the Group of 8 meeting in Lough Erne in Northern Ireland in June, and steer the discussion back toward negotiations.
If we can avoid force against Syria, this will improve the atmosphere in international affairs and strengthen mutual trust. It will be our shared success and open the door to cooperation on other critical issues.
My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States’ policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.” It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/op....html?hp&_r=1&