It makes Gatti vs Ward look tame!

**jehoshaphat** · 10-22-2013 02:22 AM

I did watch the UFC 166 card and Melendez/Sanchez was entertaining. But no fight in any sport can possibly make Gatti/Ward 1 look tame unless there is a death match sport somewhere. And it is not a fact that MMA is an easier sport than boxing. That's called an opinion. We should be more sensible enough to stop comparing the two like were in a world where its one or the other. The sports aren't even really to be compared. But to the point of the thread, though you mislead intentionally, that fight was nice to see but you have to admit that it was very low level in the skills department. Melendez is much more polished than that and he brought it down to the level of Sanchez to an all out wild slug fest. You can even hear Joe Rogan admit there is not a lot skill in this one. Though him and the other commentator both called it the greatest fight they'd ever seen. I don't connect the two. My opinion is those wild slug fests are entertaining, I can even see most entertaining, but not the greatest fights. People must have different interpretations of the word greatest. I think what Cain Velasquez did to Dos Santos was far greater.

**Violent Demise** · 10-22-2013 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by jehoshaphat

I did watch the UFC 166 card and Melendez/Sanchez was entertaining. But no fight in any sport can possibly make Gatti/Ward 1 look tame unless there is a death match sport somewhere. And it is not a fact that MMA is an easier sport than boxing. That's called an opinion. We should be more sensible enough to stop comparing the two like were in a world where its one or the other. The sports aren't even really to be compared. But to the point of the thread, though you mislead intentionally, that fight was nice to see but you have to admit that it was very low level in the skills department. Melendez is much more polished than that and he brought it down to the level of Sanchez to an all out wild slug fest. You can even hear Joe Rogan admit there is not a lot skill in this one. Though him and the other commentator both called it the greatest fight they'd ever seen. I don't connect the two. My opinion is those wild slug fests are entertaining, I can even see most entertaining, but not the greatest fights. People must have different interpretations of the word greatest. I think what Cain Velasquez did to Dos Santos was far greater.

There's several reasons it's a fact. It's a fact just based on the times set. MMA fights are set for only 3 rounds. 5 for championship fights. At 5 minutes a round it comes out to only 15 and 25 minutes of fighting. Boxing is set for 10 and 12 rounds at 3 minutes a round. That comes out to 30 and 36 minutes of fighting. A lot of the MMA's fight minutes are spent on the ground looking for position or a submission. That's a lot of rest time compared to the no rest time in a boxing match. Really it's not even debatable.

**Violent Demise** · 10-22-2013 04:44 AM

It was a pretty ugly cut. But I don't think the fight was ever in any danger of being stopped cuz of it. At least it shouldn't of been.

**Scott22** · 10-23-2013 07:57 AM

Really enjoyed reading this debate between jeh and VD. Good stuff. Good points made in a respectful manner by both. I like watching both sports and am a fan of both. I agree with jeh and consider MMA to be the tougher of the two. I don't agree with VD's view because I never looked at it from his view. Doing so now I see there is truth in what he's saying. He's not wrong. But at the end it just comes down to what one perfers to watch. Thanks for the good read guys.

**Mr140** · 10-23-2013 09:10 AM

I would say Boxing is way harder sport because it so much more refined. Thats because its been around so much longer i am older then mma is really or close to it and in boxing can't just start training and in a few years win the belt and be consider one of the greats. Boxing for most part you got to get started at birth damn near takes for ever to get the craft down and i am pretty sure the pool fighters much bigger then mma meaning more chance for better talent. Not to mention the money differences is almost laughable at the top level for fighters and i blame that mostly because one org owns them as well. The fight i found to be good i like mma but man it's lay and pray is worse then anything i have seen boxing still the best. That being said thank you for sharing the fight it was good but i am not sure as good as you are saying though.

**armin** · 10-22-2013 06:19 AM

Just rewatched the fight again and that was far to one sided, gilbert was in complete control for about 85% of that fight, exclude that knockdown in the third and what your left with is a fun fight but way one sided to be great.

**jehoshaphat** · 10-22-2013 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by jehoshaphat

I did watch the UFC 166 card and Melendez/Sanchez was entertaining. But no fight in any sport can possibly make Gatti/Ward 1 look tame unless there is a death match sport somewhere. And it is not a fact that MMA is an easier sport than boxing. That's called an opinion. We should be more sensible enough to stop comparing the two like were in a world where its one or the other. The sports aren't even really to be compared. But to the point of the thread, though you mislead intentionally, that fight was nice to see but you have to admit that it was very low level in the skills department. Melendez is much more polished than that and he brought it down to the level of Sanchez to an all out wild slug fest. You can even hear Joe Rogan admit there is not a lot skill in this one. Though him and the other commentator both called it the greatest fight they'd ever seen. I don't connect the two. My opinion is those wild slug fests are entertaining, I can even see most entertaining, but not the greatest fights. People must have different interpretations of the word greatest. I think what Cain Velasquez did to Dos Santos was far greater.

There's several reasons it's a fact. It's a fact just based on the times set. MMA fights are set for only 3 rounds. 5 for championship fights. At 5 minutes a round it comes out to only 15 and 25 minutes of fighting. Boxing is set for 10 and 12 rounds at 3 minutes a round. That comes out to 30 and 36 minutes of fighting. A lot of the MMA's fight minutes are spent on the ground looking for position or a submission. That's a lot of rest time compared to the no rest time in a boxing match. Really it's not even debatable.

So your whole argument is that its a shorter contest so its easier

No state would have legalized MMA if they fought longer. The gloves are only 4 ounces. They would be looked at as death risks and not a sport. They are still having difficulty in New York and I think one or two other states. No rest time while boxing

Have you ever boxed? Lets talk difficulty. The gloves are small in MMA so making a mistake and paying for it with a KO is greatly heightened. In MMA you have to train for all strikes, offensively and defensively, from head to toe. Then you have to train for and defend wrestling and submissions. Have you ever wrestled? You couldn't have if you think that's resting. I have and it was more tiring than boxing. You might not be aware of it but you literally have to use your entire body and it tires you out more than boxing. When you're in a fight, including boxing, even if you're not engaging and just posturing you're continually embracing for a possible strike/defense and this uses energy. That is why some guys burn out faster because they haven't mastered when and what to relax. MMA is a much more difficult fight to prepare for man. There are so many arts you have to train in and then also defend. Read some of the things Jeff Mayweather said when he first started training MMA guys. He had to broaden his defensive teachings because the defense he was teaching them was too limiting for MMA.

**Violent Demise** · 10-22-2013 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by jehoshaphat

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by jehoshaphat

I did watch the UFC 166 card and Melendez/Sanchez was entertaining. But no fight in any sport can possibly make Gatti/Ward 1 look tame unless there is a death match sport somewhere. And it is not a fact that MMA is an easier sport than boxing. That's called an opinion. We should be more sensible enough to stop comparing the two like were in a world where its one or the other. The sports aren't even really to be compared. But to the point of the thread, though you mislead intentionally, that fight was nice to see but you have to admit that it was very low level in the skills department. Melendez is much more polished than that and he brought it down to the level of Sanchez to an all out wild slug fest. You can even hear Joe Rogan admit there is not a lot skill in this one. Though him and the other commentator both called it the greatest fight they'd ever seen. I don't connect the two. My opinion is those wild slug fests are entertaining, I can even see most entertaining, but not the greatest fights. People must have different interpretations of the word greatest. I think what Cain Velasquez did to Dos Santos was far greater.

There's several reasons it's a fact. It's a fact just based on the times set. MMA fights are set for only 3 rounds. 5 for championship fights. At 5 minutes a round it comes out to only 15 and 25 minutes of fighting. Boxing is set for 10 and 12 rounds at 3 minutes a round. That comes out to 30 and 36 minutes of fighting. A lot of the MMA's fight minutes are spent on the ground looking for position or a submission. That's a lot of rest time compared to the no rest time in a boxing match. Really it's not even debatable.

So your whole argument is that its a shorter contest so its easier

No state would have legalized MMA if they fought longer. The gloves are only 4 ounces. They would be looked at as death risks and not a sport. They are still having difficulty in New York and I think one or two other states. No rest time while boxing

Have you ever boxed? Lets talk difficulty. The gloves are small in MMA so making a mistake and paying for it with a KO is greatly heightened. In MMA you have to train for all strikes, offensively and defensively, from head to toe. Then you have to train for and defend wrestling and submissions. Have you ever wrestled? You couldn't have if you think that's resting. I have and it was more tiring than boxing. You might not be aware of it but you literally have to use your entire body and it tires you out more than boxing. When you're in a fight, including boxing, even if you're not engaging and just posturing you're continually embracing for a possible strike/defense and this uses energy. That is why some guys burn out faster because they haven't mastered when and what to relax. MMA is a much more difficult fight to prepare for man. There are so many arts you have to train in and then also defend. Read some of the things Jeff Mayweather said when he first started training MMA guys. He had to broaden his defensive teachings because the defense he was teaching them was too limiting for MMA.

Them being shorter is just one of the reasons. I've boxed before. I didn't count the minute between rounds as rest time cuz MMA uses it as well. So it canceled each other out. The fact that so many different styles are used in MMA is one of the reasons it's easier. Both are considered combat sports. But only one (Boxing) can only be won by hitting alone. In Boxing you have to know how to punch/strike. There's no way around that. You can't punch/strike you're not gonna win. Hell if you can't punch you can't ever be a boxer. But you can be an MMA guy. Because there you don't have to know how to punch to be successful. Damn near 90% of MMA fighters can't throw a decent punch. Cuz they don't have to. If he can wrestle, he can be successful in MMA. All he has to do is score a take-down and control the action while on top. If he can kick he can be successful. There's several ways one can be successful in MMA. In boxing there's only one way to win. And that's by punching. That's what makes it harder. In MMA it's possible for a rookie like Brock Leshner to dominate it's HOF champion and dethrone him with less than 5 pro fights. Leshner tries taking on Wlad with......you know what? Fuck Wlad. Leshner even tries taking on Audley Harrison with less than 5 pro fights to his name and Harrison sends him out on a stretcher. You can take that as an opinion if you want. I think it's more of a fact.

**jehoshaphat** · 10-22-2013 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by jehoshaphat

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by jehoshaphat

I did watch the UFC 166 card and Melendez/Sanchez was entertaining. But no fight in any sport can possibly make Gatti/Ward 1 look tame unless there is a death match sport somewhere. And it is not a fact that MMA is an easier sport than boxing. That's called an opinion. We should be more sensible enough to stop comparing the two like were in a world where its one or the other. The sports aren't even really to be compared. But to the point of the thread, though you mislead intentionally, that fight was nice to see but you have to admit that it was very low level in the skills department. Melendez is much more polished than that and he brought it down to the level of Sanchez to an all out wild slug fest. You can even hear Joe Rogan admit there is not a lot skill in this one. Though him and the other commentator both called it the greatest fight they'd ever seen. I don't connect the two. My opinion is those wild slug fests are entertaining, I can even see most entertaining, but not the greatest fights. People must have different interpretations of the word greatest. I think what Cain Velasquez did to Dos Santos was far greater.

There's several reasons it's a fact. It's a fact just based on the times set. MMA fights are set for only 3 rounds. 5 for championship fights. At 5 minutes a round it comes out to only 15 and 25 minutes of fighting. Boxing is set for 10 and 12 rounds at 3 minutes a round. That comes out to 30 and 36 minutes of fighting. A lot of the MMA's fight minutes are spent on the ground looking for position or a submission. That's a lot of rest time compared to the no rest time in a boxing match. Really it's not even debatable.

So your whole argument is that its a shorter contest so its easier

No state would have legalized MMA if they fought longer. The gloves are only 4 ounces. They would be looked at as death risks and not a sport. They are still having difficulty in New York and I think one or two other states. No rest time while boxing

Have you ever boxed? Lets talk difficulty. The gloves are small in MMA so making a mistake and paying for it with a KO is greatly heightened. In MMA you have to train for all strikes, offensively and defensively, from head to toe. Then you have to train for and defend wrestling and submissions. Have you ever wrestled? You couldn't have if you think that's resting. I have and it was more tiring than boxing. You might not be aware of it but you literally have to use your entire body and it tires you out more than boxing. When you're in a fight, including boxing, even if you're not engaging and just posturing you're continually embracing for a possible strike/defense and this uses energy. That is why some guys burn out faster because they haven't mastered when and what to relax. MMA is a much more difficult fight to prepare for man. There are so many arts you have to train in and then also defend. Read some of the things Jeff Mayweather said when he first started training MMA guys. He had to broaden his defensive teachings because the defense he was teaching them was too limiting for MMA.

Them being shorter is just one of the reasons. I've boxed before. I didn't count the minute between rounds as rest time cuz MMA uses it as well. So it canceled each other out. The fact that so many different styles are used in MMA is one of the reasons it's easier. Both are considered combat sports. But only one (Boxing) can only be won by hitting alone. In Boxing you have to know how to punch/strike. There's no way around that. You can't punch/strike you're not gonna win. Hell if you can't punch you can't ever be a boxer. But you can be an MMA guy. Because there you don't have to know how to punch to be successful. Damn near 90% of MMA fighters can't throw a decent punch. Cuz they don't have to. If he can wrestle, he can be successful in MMA. All he has to do is score a take-down and control the action while on top. If he can kick he can be successful. There's several ways one can be successful in MMA. In boxing there's only one way to win. And that's by punching. That's what makes it harder. In MMA it's possible for a rookie like Brock Leshner to dominate it's HOF champion and dethrone him with less than 5 pro fights. Leshner tries taking on Wlad with......you know what? Fuck Wlad. Leshner even tries taking on Audley Harrison with less than 5 pro fights to his name and Harrison sends him out on a stretcher. You can take that as an opinion if you want. I think it's more of a fact.

Nah, I wasn't talking about the 1 minute rest. I said rest "while" you're boxing. There are plenty of times boxers rest in the ring. But the reason you think boxing is harder, because it it simplified, is the reason I think MMA is more difficult. I think MMA is harder because you have to know so much more and you have to train for and be better at more on offense and defense. You're mind must be alert about so many different things that can happen or opportunities. Those MMA guys are better boxers than you discredit them for. You would be making a mistake if you judge someone's boxing ability solely by an MMA fight. The form and technique HAS to be different. Heck, there are guys in MMA who were boxers first and had success in the amateurs like Gustafson and Schaub. Many pro boxers tried their hand in MMA. In MMA you can't just come in with one skill and dominate. Those days are far over. Lesnar was exposed and Dana set that whole road up for Lesnar to succeed because of his draw power. UFC was failing and even had the Fertitta brothers asking Dana to see what he could get for the company on a sell. Coutre was old and on like a 2 year lay off when he fought Lesnar. He got handed a title by lining him up with an old and smaller wrestler. But Brock's drawing power is still unmatched in the UFC. But eventually he had to fight guys who were not suited for him and he got exposed and he admitted himself he is not really a fighter. You know that's same Coutre that obliterated James Toney, right? Before the fight James Toney was talking the same way about how these guys are unskilled and how he can come in with 6 months training and succeed. We know how that story ended. But if they wanted him to succeed they would have set him up with strikers in MMA and for at least those matches he would have been given a fighting chance. Throwing Lesnar in boxing would be equivalent to throwing Wlad into wrestling. Those sports have zero likeness. Any sport can make it easy for a guy to succeed at a faster rate. There are situational gifts, guys get old, weak eras, etc. Leon Spinks won the world title in like a year as a pro. And that was over one of the best who ever done it.

**Nameless** · 10-22-2013 09:14 PM

I like both MMA and boxing. That was definitely a very good scrap, people that were present to the fight had a great night. That doesn't make Gatti-Ward any less thrilling though,2 different kind of excitements for 2 very different sports.
That said, MMA is more difficult than boxing, even Freddie Roach said so in an interview he gave last year or so (I remember to have seen it and what he said but not exactly when it was). Reason? There is just so much more to know in MMA to perform well than in boxing. Does it make boxing any less interesting? Hell no, it's not because something is more complicated that it is automatically much better.

**jehoshaphat** · 10-22-2013 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Nameless

I like both MMA and boxing. That was definitely a very good scrap, people that were present to the fight had a great night. That doesn't make Gatti-Ward any less thrilling though,2 different kind of excitements for 2 very different sports.
That said, MMA is more difficult than boxing, even Freddie Roach said so in an interview he gave last year or so (I remember to have seen it and what he said but not exactly when it was). Reason? There is just so much more to know in MMA to perform well than in boxing. Does it make boxing any less interesting? Hell no, it's not because something is more complicated that it is automatically much better.

I agree. MMA is more difficult but I like boxing better. I watch them both but the build up to boxing matches and my general like for boxing makes me look more forward to a top level boxing match as opposed to a top level MMA match.

**Violent Demise** · 10-22-2013 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by jehoshaphat

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by jehoshaphat

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Originally Posted by jehoshaphat

I did watch the UFC 166 card and Melendez/Sanchez was entertaining. But no fight in any sport can possibly make Gatti/Ward 1 look tame unless there is a death match sport somewhere. And it is not a fact that MMA is an easier sport than boxing. That's called an opinion. We should be more sensible enough to stop comparing the two like were in a world where its one or the other. The sports aren't even really to be compared. But to the point of the thread, though you mislead intentionally, that fight was nice to see but you have to admit that it was very low level in the skills department. Melendez is much more polished than that and he brought it down to the level of Sanchez to an all out wild slug fest. You can even hear Joe Rogan admit there is not a lot skill in this one. Though him and the other commentator both called it the greatest fight they'd ever seen. I don't connect the two. My opinion is those wild slug fests are entertaining, I can even see most entertaining, but not the greatest fights. People must have different interpretations of the word greatest. I think what Cain Velasquez did to Dos Santos was far greater.

There's several reasons it's a fact. It's a fact just based on the times set. MMA fights are set for only 3 rounds. 5 for championship fights. At 5 minutes a round it comes out to only 15 and 25 minutes of fighting. Boxing is set for 10 and 12 rounds at 3 minutes a round. That comes out to 30 and 36 minutes of fighting. A lot of the MMA's fight minutes are spent on the ground looking for position or a submission. That's a lot of rest time compared to the no rest time in a boxing match. Really it's not even debatable.

So your whole argument is that its a shorter contest so its easier

No state would have legalized MMA if they fought longer. The gloves are only 4 ounces. They would be looked at as death risks and not a sport. They are still having difficulty in New York and I think one or two other states. No rest time while boxing

Have you ever boxed? Lets talk difficulty. The gloves are small in MMA so making a mistake and paying for it with a KO is greatly heightened. In MMA you have to train for all strikes, offensively and defensively, from head to toe. Then you have to train for and defend wrestling and submissions. Have you ever wrestled? You couldn't have if you think that's resting. I have and it was more tiring than boxing. You might not be aware of it but you literally have to use your entire body and it tires you out more than boxing. When you're in a fight, including boxing, even if you're not engaging and just posturing you're continually embracing for a possible strike/defense and this uses energy. That is why some guys burn out faster because they haven't mastered when and what to relax. MMA is a much more difficult fight to prepare for man. There are so many arts you have to train in and then also defend. Read some of the things Jeff Mayweather said when he first started training MMA guys. He had to broaden his defensive teachings because the defense he was teaching them was too limiting for MMA.

Them being shorter is just one of the reasons. I've boxed before. I didn't count the minute between rounds as rest time cuz MMA uses it as well. So it canceled each other out. The fact that so many different styles are used in MMA is one of the reasons it's easier. Both are considered combat sports. But only one (Boxing) can only be won by hitting alone. In Boxing you have to know how to punch/strike. There's no way around that. You can't punch/strike you're not gonna win. Hell if you can't punch you can't ever be a boxer. But you can be an MMA guy. Because there you don't have to know how to punch to be successful. Damn near 90% of MMA fighters can't throw a decent punch. Cuz they don't have to. If he can wrestle, he can be successful in MMA. All he has to do is score a take-down and control the action while on top. If he can kick he can be successful. There's several ways one can be successful in MMA. In boxing there's only one way to win. And that's by punching. That's what makes it harder. In MMA it's possible for a rookie like Brock Leshner to dominate it's HOF champion and dethrone him with less than 5 pro fights. Leshner tries taking on Wlad with......you know what? Fuck Wlad. Leshner even tries taking on Audley Harrison with less than 5 pro fights to his name and Harrison sends him out on a stretcher. You can take that as an opinion if you want. I think it's more of a fact.

Nah, I wasn't talking about the 1 minute rest. I said rest "while" you're boxing. There are plenty of times boxers rest in the ring. But the reason you think boxing is harder, because it it simplified, is the reason I think MMA is more difficult. I think MMA is harder because you have to know so much more and you have to train for and be better at more on offense and defense. You're mind must be alert about so many different things that can happen or opportunities. Those MMA guys are better boxers than you discredit them for. You would be making a mistake if you judge someone's boxing ability solely by an MMA fight. The form and technique HAS to be different. Heck, there are guys in MMA who were boxers first and had success in the amateurs like Gustafson and Schaub. Many pro boxers tried their hand in MMA. In MMA you can't just come in with one skill and dominate. Those days are far over. Lesnar was exposed and Dana set that whole road up for Lesnar to succeed because of his draw power. UFC was failing and even had the Fertitta brothers asking Dana to see what he could get for the company on a sell. Coutre was old and on like a 2 year lay off when he fought Lesnar. He got handed a title by lining him up with an old and smaller wrestler. But Brock's drawing power is still unmatched in the UFC. But eventually he had to fight guys who were not suited for him and he got exposed and he admitted himself he is not really a fighter. You know that's same Coutre that obliterated James Toney, right? Before the fight James Toney was talking the same way about how these guys are unskilled and how he can come in with 6 months training and succeed. We know how that story ended. But if they wanted him to succeed they would have set him up with strikers in MMA and for at least those matches he would have been given a fighting chance. Throwing Lesnar in boxing would be equivalent to throwing Wlad into wrestling. Those sports have zero likeness. Any sport can make it easy for a guy to succeed at a faster rate. There are situational gifts, guys get old, weak eras, etc. Leon Spinks won the world title in like a year as a pro. And that was over one of the best who ever done it.

MMA's good boxers aren't good boxers in boxing. At best there journeymen there. What do you mean there form has to be different? Is throwing a straight punch some kind of handicap in MMA that it needs to be changed? Most of these "good boxers" are throwing sloppy, wide punches that would get them wrecked in a ring.

Coutre beat Toney. I wouldn't say he obliterated him. How much punishment did Toney really take? He got token down. Took some shots while Coutre was on top of him. Than got chocked out. That's it. He took more punishment in one round against Fres Oquendo than he did in the whole Coutre fight. Obliterate is more what Ray Mercer did to Tim Silva in like 10 seconds. Boxers will give MMA a shot. They will go into a cage and see what it's all about. MMA guys won't go into the ring to see what it's about (The guys who started as boxers first don't count). To hard. Toney asked Coutre to rematch him in a ring. Coutre turned him down. Anderson Silva for what ever reason wants to fight a washed up Roy Jones. Jones said he'll do it. But Dana White will never do it. He knows what happens to his top fighter against a washed up Roy Jones. He gets massacred.

Saying Lesner was set up to succeed is a distortion of the truth. Frank Mir was suppose to be this great former champ who could submit you in many ways. So how is fighting him in your UFC debut being set up to succeed? And Coutre was already champion before Lesner got there. You make it seem like he was made champion just so Lesner can beat him.

**jehoshaphat** · 10-22-2013 11:08 PM

VD, I'm thinking you really don't watch much MMA. I bet there are many MMA fighters who have accomplished more than you in boxing. What was your highest accomplishment? A boxer can not have the same form in an MMA fight because the strikes are way too vast and many. You have to have a wider defense. Did you see what Jeff Mayweather said about this? I guess even he is wrong. In Mike Tyson's new series he alluded to the same thing when they asked him about Dos Santos and boxing. You can't take on a boxing form in MMA or you will get hit by all kind of kicks and be susceptible to take downs. No good boxer is going to leave boxing for MMA money

But to say guys don't throw a decent punch in MMA is outright wrong. Boxing isn't some hidden craft. Many guys have years of training with Freddie Roach, Jeff Mayweather, and many boxing gyms. They know how to punch. What was your best accomplishment in boxing? Gustafson and Lil Nog were both amateur national boxing champions. Stephan Bonnar and Brendan Schaub both made it to the national Golden Gloves tournament. Noons and Davis were pro boxers first. Pitting Sylvia against Mercer is exactly like Coutre against Lesnar. You know the likeliness of that especially since Sylvia agreed before the bout to keep it standing and they even tried to change the MMA rules before the bout. Did you know that? And I pointed out Coutre because you made it seem like what Brock did was easy to do in MMA. No, Brock was there at the right situation with an older smaller champ who was a wrestler. You can't deny they gave Brock a title shot. James Toney fought an even more shot Coutre and if its so easy to come in MMA and beat a HOF then why did Toney get wiped out?

**Nameless** · 10-23-2013 07:11 AM