Tomasz Adamek vs Evander Holyfield

[Master]

Adamek loses to Holyfield and Joe Frazier. The new modern heavyweights are poor at present and that is the reason why average heavyweights now seem better than they really are.

[Mr140]

Thank god i thought Holyfeild was fighting again just a hypothetical match which is almost as fucking stupid to make. Holyfeild is the best cw of all time and top 10 atg Heavyweight most of his loses are after he was 40 and past his day Adamek is eh Holyfeild is a great and better at everything in boxing.

[Max Power]

Yeah well I think if you buy into that crap Master that the modern HW's couldn't hold a candle to the old guys then you've swallowed the American media spin. Funny how not many outside the US, where American HW's are seriously challenged to keep up now, that opinion doesn't seem quite so prevalent.

There'll always be the "old time nutbags" in every sport but there is far too much tolerance for it in the boxing world.

Holyfield was a GREAT fighter, I have him #5! But you guys seem to forget that he LOST sometimes and was seriously challenged at others by much lesser fighters. You forget that he didn't even gain any respect as a champion until he lost a fight.

His HW record stands at 26-10 with a low KO ratio, as we all know it's not as bad as it looks because some of those losses were when he was old and he was never a big puncher. One question I'd like to pose to the idiot who said Adamek would be battered is this... "Who has Holyfield ever battered into submission at HW?" Nobody. He is a counter-puncher and an attrition brawler. So basically with such a stupid comment your claiming that Adamek would be the worst opponent of Holyfield's career!

[ruthless rocco]

I think the point you're missing @Max Power is that Holyfield wasn't simply a heavyweight. He was a dominant world champion cruiserweight who moved up to fight the best competition at HW and beat most of them. He held either the WBA, IBF or WBC titles(sometimes all three) at CW or HW from 1986-2001! With the exception of 1989(because he moved up to HW) & 1995.

Lets look at who Holyfield beat at HW:
Buster Douglas
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Riddick Bowe
Ray Mercer
Mike Tyson
Michael Moorer
John Ruiz

Now, @Max Power please pick the fighters from this list that you believe Adamek could beat. Also please make a list of Adamek's achievements that suggest that he has done anything similar to coming close to giving a rational person even a sliver of hope of him not being used like toilet paper by THE GREAT Evander Holyfield.

[Max Power]

I think the point you're missing @Max Power is that Holyfield wasn't simply a heavyweight. He was a dominant world champion cruiserweight who moved up to fight the best competition at HW and beat most of them. He held either the WBA, IBF or WBC titles(sometimes all three) at CW or HW from 1986-2001! With the exception of 1989(because he moved up to HW) & 1995.

Lets look at who Holyfield beat at HW:
Buster Douglas
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Riddick Bowe
Ray Mercer
Mike Tyson
Michael Moorer
John Ruiz

Now, @Max Power please pick the fighters from this list that you believe Adamek could beat. Also please make a list of Adamek's achievements that suggest that he has done anything similar to coming close to giving a rational person even a sliver of hope of him not being used like toilet paper by THE GREAT Evander Holyfield.

Ok let's see. Your original statement I don't fully agree with. Evander was a dominant champ at CW and a great one at HW but far from dominant. A dominant champ wins almost all his fights in his reign, Lennox Lewis, only 2ce lost by punchers chance. Tyson lost only to Buster Douglas in what was considered his reign and that was Buster's best performance and one of Tyson's worst (before he was completely shot), Lewis and Tyson were the dominant champs of the era. Holyfield lost to an array of mediocre contenders, that's not dominance and was clearly bested by Bowe (you can't be dominant if there's one fighter that's clearly better.) Being a "4-time HW champ" sounds great but it basically means you had to LOSE it 3 times!

As for your list...

Adamek could easily outpoint the Buster that Holy beat.
George Foreman is too slow to catch Adamek, another UD and Adamek is not chinny enough or stupid enough to get knocked out like Moorer.
Larry Holmes gets the nod from me by decision.
Riddick Bowe would beat him up like Vitali did but I think Adamek would survive for decision loss.
Ray Mercer of the Lewis fight would have Adamek KO but most versions of Ray were too poorly skilled to beat Adamek so most times this is an Adamek DEC.
Mike Tyson would knock Adamek out, Holyfield definitely performs better than Adamek here!
I think Adamek has even chances against Moorer.
I think Adamek beats Ruiz.

So all in all I see a guy who, being a smaller HW would be challenged by the powerful guys but certainly belongs in the league.

And as to your final quip...

Chambers, Cunningham, Guinn, McBride, Grant, Arreola, Golota, Banks. These are respectable win opponents!

And although battered by Vitali, how many of your list of Evander's opponents there could survive against Klitschko? Some certainly... But not many!

[Max Power]

Adamek loses to Holyfield and Joe Frazier. The new modern heavyweights are poor at present and that is the reason why average heavyweights now seem better than they really are.

You cannot rubbish a modern contender and THEN go on to bring up an ancient HW like Frazier who has so many skeletons in his closet and probably would not be able to even compete as a professional HW today. Try again!

[Master]

Adamek loses to Holyfield and Joe Frazier. The new modern heavyweights are poor at present and that is the reason why average heavyweights now seem better than they really are.

You cannot rubbish a modern contender and THEN go on to bring up an ancient HW like Frazier who has so many skeletons in his closet and probably would not be able to even compete as a professional HW today. Try again!

No need to try again calling Joe non-professional says it all.

[ruthless rocco]

I think the point you're missing @Max Power is that Holyfield wasn't simply a heavyweight. He was a dominant world champion cruiserweight who moved up to fight the best competition at HW and beat most of them. He held either the WBA, IBF or WBC titles(sometimes all three) at CW or HW from 1986-2001! With the exception of 1989(because he moved up to HW) & 1995.

Lets look at who Holyfield beat at HW:
Buster Douglas
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Riddick Bowe
Ray Mercer
Mike Tyson
Michael Moorer
John Ruiz

Now, @Max Power please pick the fighters from this list that you believe Adamek could beat. Also please make a list of Adamek's achievements that suggest that he has done anything similar to coming close to giving a rational person even a sliver of hope of him not being used like toilet paper by THE GREAT Evander Holyfield.

Ok let's see. Your original statement I don't fully agree with. Evander was a dominant champ at CW and a great one at HW but far from dominant. A dominant champ wins almost all his fights in his reign, Lennox Lewis, only 2ce lost by punchers chance. Tyson lost only to Buster Douglas in what was considered his reign and that was Buster's best performance and one of Tyson's worst (before he was completely shot), Lewis and Tyson were the dominant champs of the era. Holyfield lost to an array of mediocre contenders, that's not dominance and was clearly bested by Bowe (you can't be dominant if there's one fighter that's clearly better.) Being a "4-time HW champ" sounds great but it basically means you had to LOSE it 3 times!

As for your list...

Adamek could easily outpoint the Buster that Holy beat.
George Foreman is too slow to catch Adamek, another UD and Adamek is not chinny enough or stupid enough to get knocked out like Moorer.
Larry Holmes gets the nod from me by decision.
Riddick Bowe would beat him up like Vitali did but I think Adamek would survive for decision loss.
Ray Mercer of the Lewis fight would have Adamek KO but most versions of Ray were too poorly skilled to beat Adamek so most times this is an Adamek DEC.
Mike Tyson would knock Adamek out, Holyfield definitely performs better than Adamek here!
I think Adamek has even chances against Moorer.
I think Adamek beats Ruiz.

So all in all I see a guy who, being a smaller HW would be challenged by the powerful guys but certainly belongs in the league.

And as to your final quip...

Chambers, Cunningham, Guinn, McBride, Grant, Arreola, Golota, Banks. These are respectable win opponents!

And although battered by Vitali, how many of your list of Evander's opponents there could survive against Klitschko? Some certainly... But not many!

@Max Power are you friends with Rob Ford?

[ruthless rocco]

I think the point you're missing @Max Power is that Holyfield wasn't simply a heavyweight. He was a dominant world champion cruiserweight who moved up to fight the best competition at HW and beat most of them. He held either the WBA, IBF or WBC titles(sometimes all three) at CW or HW from 1986-2001! With the exception of 1989(because he moved up to HW) & 1995.

Lets look at who Holyfield beat at HW:
Buster Douglas
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Riddick Bowe
Ray Mercer
Mike Tyson
Michael Moorer
John Ruiz

Now, @Max Power please pick the fighters from this list that you believe Adamek could beat. Also please make a list of Adamek's achievements that suggest that he has done anything similar to coming close to giving a rational person even a sliver of hope of him not being used like toilet paper by THE GREAT Evander Holyfield.

Ok let's see. Your original statement I don't fully agree with. Evander was a dominant champ at CW and a great one at HW but far from dominant. A dominant champ wins almost all his fights in his reign, Lennox Lewis, only 2ce lost by punchers chance. Tyson lost only to Buster Douglas in what was considered his reign and that was Buster's best performance and one of Tyson's worst (before he was completely shot), Lewis and Tyson were the dominant champs of the era. Holyfield lost to an array of mediocre contenders, that's not dominance and was clearly bested by Bowe (you can't be dominant if there's one fighter that's clearly better.) Being a "4-time HW champ" sounds great but it basically means you had to LOSE it 3 times!

As for your list...

Adamek could easily outpoint the Buster that Holy beat.
George Foreman is too slow to catch Adamek, another UD and Adamek is not chinny enough or stupid enough to get knocked out like Moorer.
Larry Holmes gets the nod from me by decision.
Riddick Bowe would beat him up like Vitali did but I think Adamek would survive for decision loss.
Ray Mercer of the Lewis fight would have Adamek KO but most versions of Ray were too poorly skilled to beat Adamek so most times this is an Adamek DEC.
Mike Tyson would knock Adamek out, Holyfield definitely performs better than Adamek here!
I think Adamek has even chances against Moorer.
I think Adamek beats Ruiz.

So all in all I see a guy who, being a smaller HW would be challenged by the powerful guys but certainly belongs in the league.

And as to your final quip...

Chambers, Cunningham, Guinn, McBride, Grant, Arreola, Golota, Banks. These are respectable win opponents!

And although battered by Vitali, how many of your list of Evander's opponents there could survive against Klitschko? Some certainly... But not many!

There are three possible reason that you aren't able to agree with my "original statement" 1- you can't read 2- you already have your mind made up...but it could be 3- a combination of 1 & 2.
1- If you re-read my post you'll notice I never said Holyfield was a dominant HW(I've highlighted the "original statement" so you can easily read it.) I said he was a dominant CW that moved up to HW and fought the best competition and beat most of them. Where do you find fault in that?
2- You then start rambling about who was dominant at the time. You mention Lennox, a good example--one of the best. Then you mention Tyson as an example of a dominant fighter, ignoring the argument you made about needing to win most of one's fights in order to be considered dominant. Tyson lost fights at the end of his career to terrible opposition and you're willing to forgive Tyson's loses but you're not willing to do the same for Holyfield and his late career loses.

I never mentioned Holyfield being a 4 time champ. I don't even know why you brought it up. I did state that he was champion from 1986-2001(two years excluded) which is an incredible achievement!

Your list of respectable opponents is a joke. Do you even know the history of those fighters?
Guinn was 38 years old and had lost 3 of his last 4 fights!
McBride had lost 4 of his last 5 fights(including a recent loss to a guy with a record of 20-29!!!) McBride's biggest win was against Tyson but that's a Tyson fight you're willing to ignore, so we better ignore McBride's win against hm as well...
Grant had fought once in 2 years.
Golota could have been a great fighter but he was clearly mentally unstable. He was DQ'd for low blows two fights in a row and both times he was clearly winning both fights!
Banks was a CW at the time... We know what Evander did at CW-DOMINATED!
I'm getting tired... so i'm not gonna write about the rest... Needless to say Holyfield would have beat them all. All of them!

As for your question about which of Holyfield's victims survives Klitchko...? That was one fight Klitchko is arguably one of the greats there's no shame in losing to him. But i'll point out that Adamek didn't survive he got KTFO!!! If surviving to the 10th round before getting KO'd by Klitchko is Adamek's biggest achievement then that's pretty much the smoking gun on your silly argument.

[Max Power]

Sorry I did not read it correctly, my bad.

Ok so when you look at the context, some of the opponents of Adamek were not exactly solid, esp when he fought them and ok perhaps merely fighting Vitali is no virtue of greatness.

Yes of course Holyfield had a tremendous career both at CW and at HW, he in fact did fight among the toughest run of opponents and most of his losses came later. Regarding Tyson though, I specifically highlighted his "reign" as being his 1980's 1st career. He was never a dominant champ after that at all so I have not dismissed his later losses. Holyfield however, never really had an established reign as he always got upsets even at earlier stages of his career. When exactly did Holyfield become "shot"? I can accept that Holy was past it post 2001 but before that, up to the Ruiz loss for certain you cannot make that excuse. Some people have a "prime" Holyfield only losing to Riddick Bowe the 1st time and there after becoming instantly shot and excusing all subsequent losses from there, total BS!

But in all you are right, there is not much to go on with for Adamek's case with any solid ground.

[Bo-Bo24]

I think the point you're missing @Max Power is that Holyfield wasn't simply a heavyweight. He was a dominant world champion cruiserweight who moved up to fight the best competition at HW and beat most of them. He held either the WBA, IBF or WBC titles(sometimes all three) at CW or HW from 1986-2001! With the exception of 1989(because he moved up to HW) & 1995.

Lets look at who Holyfield beat at HW:
Buster Douglas
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Riddick Bowe
Ray Mercer
Mike Tyson
Michael Moorer
John Ruiz

Now, @Max Power please pick the fighters from this list that you believe Adamek could beat. Also please make a list of Adamek's achievements that suggest that he has done anything similar to coming close to giving a rational person even a sliver of hope of him not being used like toilet paper by THE GREAT Evander Holyfield.

Ok let's see. Your original statement I don't fully agree with. Evander was a dominant champ at CW and a great one at HW but far from dominant. A dominant champ wins almost all his fights in his reign, Lennox Lewis, only 2ce lost by punchers chance. Tyson lost only to Buster Douglas in what was considered his reign and that was Buster's best performance and one of Tyson's worst (before he was completely shot), Lewis and Tyson were the dominant champs of the era. Holyfield lost to an array of mediocre contenders, that's not dominance and was clearly bested by Bowe (you can't be dominant if there's one fighter that's clearly better.) Being a "4-time HW champ" sounds great but it basically means you had to LOSE it 3 times!

As for your list...

Adamek could easily outpoint the Buster that Holy beat.
George Foreman is too slow to catch Adamek, another UD and Adamek is not chinny enough or stupid enough to get knocked out like Moorer.
Larry Holmes gets the nod from me by decision.
Riddick Bowe would beat him up like Vitali did but I think Adamek would survive for decision loss.
Ray Mercer of the Lewis fight would have Adamek KO but most versions of Ray were too poorly skilled to beat Adamek so most times this is an Adamek DEC.
Mike Tyson would knock Adamek out, Holyfield definitely performs better than Adamek here!
I think Adamek has even chances against Moorer.
I think Adamek beats Ruiz.

So all in all I see a guy who, being a smaller HW would be challenged by the powerful guys but certainly belongs in the league.

And as to your final quip...

Chambers, Cunningham, Guinn, McBride, Grant, Arreola, Golota, Banks. These are respectable win opponents!

And although battered by Vitali, how many of your list of Evander's opponents there could survive against Klitschko? Some certainly... But not many!

You're mad. You really think Adamek could hold his own in a ring with the likes of Foreman and Holmes?! You do realise when Adamek retires no one will remember him, let alone rate him?

[Max Power]

You're mad. You really think Adamek could hold his own in a ring with the likes of Foreman and Holmes?! You do realise when Adamek retires no one will remember him, let alone rate him?

The versions of Holmes and Foreman that Holy fought were more experienced than their younger versions and heftier but they were far slower. Against an opponent like Adamek, this would amount to a disadvantage compared to what is normally considered "prime" for them. Young Foreman for example would finish Adamek quick. Young Holmes would be the one to out whack Adamek all night. But the ones that fought Holy were not that fast against a skilled opponent like Adamek.

Spoken like a true asshole that last bit. I have a feeling in Europe Tomasz will be remembered as a multiple world titlist he is. Only in the US where I assume you're from will you choose to ignore the present in favour of home bred heroes from ages ago.