Who had the better opponents?

[Max Power]

Well Fenster, let's take a look...

Lennox Lewis opponents

Vitali Klitschko
Mike Tyson
Hasim Rahman
David Tua
Francois Botha
Michael Grant
Evander Holyfield
Zelijko Mavrovic
Shannon Briggs
Andrew Golota
Henry Akinwande
Oliver McCall
Ray Mercer
Tommy Morrison
Frank Bruno
Tony Tucker
Donovan Ruddock


Wladimir Klitschko opponents

Alexander Povetkin
David Haye
Samuel Peter
Tony Thompson
Hasim Rahman
Ray Mercer
Chris Byrd
Eddie Chambers
Ruslan Chagaev
Sultan Ibragimov
Lamon Brewster
Jameel McCline
Francois Botha
Ray Austin
Calvin Brock
Francesco Pianeta
Mariusz Wach

I just listed 17 opponents each of both fighters. The thing is you can play mix and match with these guys all day and find plausible results for both guys. The only REAL difference apparent in quality for an American seems to me to be that the names on Lennox's list are recognisable and the ones on Wladimir's are more obscure (or possibly dismissed due to their ethnicity). Take for example Ibragimov. At the time, this guy was touted as "hot shit" and "reviving the HW division" and was quite rightly promoted. However because of his premature exit from boxing has been viewed subsequently in a so so light. In all honestly this guy would have been a tough opponent for Lewis.

If you take a look at some of the true greats that Lewis beat though, all may not be as it seems.. The best opponent by far is Vitali Klitschko. There is no analogue for this fighter on Wladimir's record. He never fought another fighter as good as himself like Lewis did so that's a big tick in Lennox column but the result of that fight leaves a bitter taste in mouths to this very day. The fight is inconclusive as to who was the better boxer.

Mike Tyson was shot, there is some considerable doubt as to whether Lewis could have handled the prime Tyson.

Evander Holyfield fights were fairly close (one of them anyway) and Holy was apparently not his best casting atleast a little doubt.

And then there were some lacklustre performances against guys he should have beaten.

Ray Mercer he was lucky to pull off the victory. Probably the only good opponent Mercer managed to actually "box" well.

He struggled against Bruno, a fighter a dominant champ should be able to KO easily

He had some problems with the drug wasted version of Tucker.

He even had a tough time against a grocery store owner from Croatia in Zelijko Mavrovic who weighed less than 220lbs!

As for losses, 2/44 and 3/64 are about even in %. McCall and Rahman are about the equivalent of Brewster and Sanders.

As for common opponents, Wladimir performed better against 3 of 4 of them (but the age difference probably nullifies this, Ray Mercer had been massively KO'd by that stage for example)

And finally the figures are there to be checked but I found that of the 17 topper opponents listed for each guy, Klitschko's were mathematically better slightly over all..

-He faced southpaws where as Lewis either ducked/never fought them. Southpaws are more difficult opponents to KO or perform well against for orthodox boxers
-He faced (and KO'd) more previously unKO-able opponents
-His opponents were heftier and taller on average
-He faced (and defeated) more unbeaten opponents than Lennox and opponents with slightly better records on average

Additionally some of Wladimir's opponents have wasted some of Lennox's (McCline/Grant etc)

[ruthless rocco]

Additionally some of Lewis's opponents have wasted some of Lennox's (McCline/Grant etc)

you're a brilliant guy!

[Max Power]

Corrected. Thanks wife! Now hit the kitchen you ball breaker!

[Fenster]

@Max Power

Basically all you've done is put a negative spin on Lewis record, which can easily be done to Wlad and any other fighter in history. So here goes...

If you are going to claim some of Lewis's opponents were "shot" or past their best then the same applies to Wlad. So take Rahman, Mercer and Botha off Wlad's list. Lewis had already dispatched much fresher versions that had been competing in world-class long before Wlad faced them.

To say Lewis "struggled" with some opponents probably indicates they were good fighters. Or maybe it's the old cliche - styles make fights. Or maybe he had an "off" night. Either way, Wlad "struggled" with Sam Peter, jumping on the floor 3 times, he struggled with Sanders, Purity and Brewster by getting knocked out. Are these men any better than those that Lewis "struggled" with? Sanders had previously been knocked out by a Lewis victim - Rahman. Brewster had been beaten by Clifford Etienne, a man the "shot" Mike Tyson knocked out in 1 round after he had become a Lewis victim. Purity was a journeyman. Wlad's big brother beat the shit out of Peter, who subsequently lost again before Wlad stopped him in the rematch, but then subsequently got knocked out again.

Mariusz Wach, Francesco Pianeta, Calvin Brock, Ray Austin and Tony Thompson? What do these guys have in common? None of them even fought for a "world" title let alone won anything before or after facing Wlad. It's not just a case of these guys being more obscure, they have never proven themselves in world-class.

Wlad's three biggest fights (arguably) - Haye, Povetkin and Ibragimov. What do these have in common? They were all boring stinkers.

So to sum up -

1. Lewis beat every man that he ever fought. Something Wlad can't claim.

2. Lewis's list of opponents is a virtual who's who of former and even current "world" champions and challengers. Many of Wlad's best opponents have clearly never proven themselves at the highest level and subsequently achieved nothing since facing him.

3. Lewis has a whole bunch of spectacular, memorable performances or dominant KO's inside 8 rounds - Ruddock, Grant, Morrison, Botha, Briggs, Golota, Rahman, Tyson, Bruno, Vitali etc. The only "thrilling" fights Wlad has ever been involved in have resulted in him getting knocked out.

Lewis is by far the superior champion on every level. Fact.

[Dark Lord Al]

Makes me smile when people say Lewis struggled with the likes of Mercer etc.
Well Clay struggled with Norton , so it's clear styles make fights.
Lewis was a top fighter and far easier on the eye then Wlad, is Wlad a top fighter. ? Yes he is.

[Spicoli]

Makes me smile when people say Lewis struggled with the likes of Mercer etc.
Well Clay struggled with Norton , so it's clear styles make fights.
Lewis was a top fighter and far easier on the eye then Wlad, is Wlad a top fighter. ? Yes he is.

It makes me smile when people actually think the Mercer who fought Lewis or Holyfield is comparable to the ghost who fought Wlad. And he boxed both of them pretty damn well off the jab. The same jab that found Wlad a bit!

[Max Power]

@Max Power

Basically all you've done is put a negative spin on Lewis record, which can easily be done to Wlad and any other fighter in history. So here goes...

If you are going to claim some of Lewis's opponents were "shot" or past their best then the same applies to Wlad. So take Rahman, Mercer and Botha off Wlad's list. Lewis had already dispatched much fresher versions that had been competing in world-class long before Wlad faced them.

To say Lewis "struggled" with some opponents probably indicates they were good fighters. Or maybe it's the old cliche - styles make fights. Or maybe he had an "off" night. Either way, Wlad "struggled" with Sam Peter, jumping on the floor 3 times, he struggled with Sanders, Purity and Brewster by getting knocked out. Are these men any better than those that Lewis "struggled" with? Sanders had previously been knocked out by a Lewis victim - Rahman. Brewster had been beaten by Clifford Etienne, a man the "shot" Mike Tyson knocked out in 1 round after he had become a Lewis victim. Purity was a journeyman. Wlad's big brother beat the shit out of Peter, who subsequently lost again before Wlad stopped him in the rematch, but then subsequently got knocked out again.

Mariusz Wach, Francesco Pianeta, Calvin Brock, Ray Austin and Tony Thompson? What do these guys have in common? None of them even fought for a "world" title let alone won anything before or after facing Wlad. It's not just a case of these guys being more obscure, they have never proven themselves in world-class.

Wlad's three biggest fights (arguably) - Haye, Povetkin and Ibragimov. What do these have in common? They were all boring stinkers.

So to sum up -

1. Lewis beat every man that he ever fought. Something Wlad can't claim.

2. Lewis's list of opponents is a virtual who's who of former and even current "world" champions and challengers. Many of Wlad's best opponents have clearly never proven themselves at the highest level and subsequently achieved nothing since facing him.

3. Lewis has a whole bunch of spectacular, memorable performances or dominant KO's inside 8 rounds - Ruddock, Grant, Morrison, Botha, Briggs, Golota, Rahman, Tyson, Bruno, Vitali etc. The only "thrilling" fights Wlad has ever been involved in have resulted in him getting knocked out.

Lewis is by far the superior champion on every level. Fact.

Ok I'm somewhat convinced here. Most of your points I have nothing to counter offer. These are the reasons I rank Lenny #1 myself. All I will maintain is that I don't believe the gap between Lewis's opponents and Wlad's is that far and SOME of Wlad's might be better than what Lennox had.

But over all... You're right, Lennox did face the better opponents.

[Fenster]

@Max Power

Basically all you've done is put a negative spin on Lewis record, which can easily be done to Wlad and any other fighter in history. So here goes...

If you are going to claim some of Lewis's opponents were "shot" or past their best then the same applies to Wlad. So take Rahman, Mercer and Botha off Wlad's list. Lewis had already dispatched much fresher versions that had been competing in world-class long before Wlad faced them.

To say Lewis "struggled" with some opponents probably indicates they were good fighters. Or maybe it's the old cliche - styles make fights. Or maybe he had an "off" night. Either way, Wlad "struggled" with Sam Peter, jumping on the floor 3 times, he struggled with Sanders, Purity and Brewster by getting knocked out. Are these men any better than those that Lewis "struggled" with? Sanders had previously been knocked out by a Lewis victim - Rahman. Brewster had been beaten by Clifford Etienne, a man the "shot" Mike Tyson knocked out in 1 round after he had become a Lewis victim. Purity was a journeyman. Wlad's big brother beat the shit out of Peter, who subsequently lost again before Wlad stopped him in the rematch, but then subsequently got knocked out again.

Mariusz Wach, Francesco Pianeta, Calvin Brock, Ray Austin and Tony Thompson? What do these guys have in common? None of them even fought for a "world" title let alone won anything before or after facing Wlad. It's not just a case of these guys being more obscure, they have never proven themselves in world-class.

Wlad's three biggest fights (arguably) - Haye, Povetkin and Ibragimov. What do these have in common? They were all boring stinkers.

So to sum up -

1. Lewis beat every man that he ever fought. Something Wlad can't claim.

2. Lewis's list of opponents is a virtual who's who of former and even current "world" champions and challengers. Many of Wlad's best opponents have clearly never proven themselves at the highest level and subsequently achieved nothing since facing him.

3. Lewis has a whole bunch of spectacular, memorable performances or dominant KO's inside 8 rounds - Ruddock, Grant, Morrison, Botha, Briggs, Golota, Rahman, Tyson, Bruno, Vitali etc. The only "thrilling" fights Wlad has ever been involved in have resulted in him getting knocked out.

Lewis is by far the superior champion on every level. Fact.

Ok I'm somewhat convinced here. Most of your points I have nothing to counter offer. These are the reasons I rank Lenny #1 myself. All I will maintain is that I don't believe the gap between Lewis's opponents and Wlad's is that far and SOME of Wlad's might be better than what Lennox had.

But over all... You're right, Lennox did face the better opponents.

Thanks for the debate.

One final point, when I was looking over Wlad's opposition I couldn't think of any memorable, notable or modern day classics they had been in, other than his few opponents that were already Lewis victims.

But when you look at Lewis's opponents it almost instantly throws up - Tyson-Holyfield x 2. Holyfield-Bowe x 3. Golota-Bowe x 2. Rahman-Sanders. Mercer-Morrison. Ruddock-Tyson x 2. Morrison-Ruddock. Tua-Ibeabuchi. Tua-Ruiz. Bruno-McCall. Significant fights like Briggs-Foreman and even fights like Botha-Moorer that tie in with Moorer-Foreman/Holyfield etc.

It's not a western bias. Quite simply Lewis beat men that were in great/memorable/notable fights. Unfortunately Wlad and his best opponents haven't done the same.

[Max Power]

That can't be completely true. Sander's vs Vitali was a good smash up. Brewster vs Liakovich was undeniably good. Ibragimov vs Whitaker was ok. Samuel PEter had some decent fights. Haye is beautiful to watch most of the time.

On the contrary I think it's mainly against Wladimir that they are forced into the kind of fight that is not fan friendly. I think Wlad would do that to just about any of the shorter opponents that Lennox faced too, even Holyfield probably.

When Wlad fights taller guys like Wach and Thompson he seems to bust out the right hand more often than just the jab. He does not like the shorter guys that try to bull inside. He knows that is the only place they can be effective and knows if he neutralises it, the fight is won (and incidentally doesn't put his famous chin at risk as well).

Personally I do agree with you Fenster, that LEnnox and his opponents did have more watchable fights than Wladimir AND his opponents. There has definitely been a decline there I can see that too. I would say though that one of the big reasons for me though is that it is hard to find HBO or otherwise coverage in English now of the major HW fights.

I don't find Wlad's fights that entertaining compared with Vitali, Lennox, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, he is not fan friendly, I'll give you that.

[palmerq]

If you take a look at some of the true greats that Lewis beat though, all may not be as it seems.. The best opponent by far is Vitali Klitschko.

I agree ! vitali was the best win for lewis and we know that david haye would beat vitali because errrrr david haye said so and he wore a t-shirt :S Wladimir beat haye and haye scared vitali into semi retirement so Wladimir has the better record.. It must be true !