London will be overrun by 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians

[brocktonblockbust]

How dare you twist things to make it be about demonizing Farrage and a political party. What a fucking hypocrite. You have the nerve to castigate Lyle about being duped by the two party system whilst sucking up to "Mr Farrage" and his propaganda. Not only that but you fall for it hook,line and sinker and then lecture the UK on whether it should be in the EU. You insist on taking the example of a proportion of an ethnic group that is itself a minority in the two countries in question and then judging millions of other unrelated people based on that. There are Romani everywhere, all over Europe, in America, Canada, Brazil, they are a nomadic people nearly wiped out by Hitler. Like the Jews this was only possible by dehumanizing them and treating them like animals. The aboriginal people of Australia are dismissed with similar arguments. "They want to live like that", "They need to stop drinking" as though they are beyond redemption and everything they suffer is no more than they deserve. I am not do easily persuaded by the fact that you and Miles have Asian wives that you are somehow beyond prejudice. Your insistence on calling Obama "Sotero" and Miles bigoted generalisations of Americans and insistence on calling disabled people "handicapped " makes that clear.

Beanz you need to calm down, you are going tooooo farrrrrr. A little self-control please. We all get upset about shit, but please, is this logical that worrying about waves of poor people (some of whom have committed enormous ATM crime in the UK recently) means that the next step is to gas them? That is nuts. YOu are going from Step 1 to Step 35 all in one step. That's the type of shit that Alex Jones does, he sees one little strand of something and he goes straight to the conclusion that such-and-such will happen because of this or that. Surely you can calm down a bit. IT IS VERY TYRANNICAL to accuse someone of being an Adolf Hitler. Wow. C'mon man. I'm a vegetarian and cannot even hurt a fly. Gassing people or dehumanizing them is pure evil and you should not imply that that is what I or Al or Miles are suggesting. Please come to your senses. @Greenbeanz @Dark Lord Al

[Gandalf]

This has nothing to do with prejudice on my part, GB. I am angry about America (as everybody should be) and I also don't give a hoot for the paralympics, but that has nothing to do with anything in this thread. My being married to someone and living successfully in a different culture also has nothing to do with this thread. I am against uncontrolled immigration for pragmatical social and economic reasons.

I have explained my point of view repeatedly, but it is you that express the Guardian reader point of view (which you accuse me of!). The typical Guardian reader is not on the same level as the tabloid media reader, the immigrants are largely coming after the jobs of the tabloid reader and of course they are angry and fearful. History says that they are right.

That's where I find it funny that you can accuse me of being a snob. I'm on the side of the ordinary English worker. He is being ripped off, ignored at the ballot box, and is desperate. If I was a true snob, I would say let them all in, as in truth, I have nothing to lose. I don't want that to be though.

I think the common concerns are correct ones and that the system is an elite tool to purposely cause social fragementation, and then you factor in Britain being a police state. Well, it all makes sense. There will be unrest, of course you need to control communications.

[Beanz]

This has nothing to do with prejudice on my part, GB. I am angry about America (as everybody should be) and I also don't give a hoot for the paralympics, but that has nothing to do with anything in this thread. My being married to someone and living successfully in a different culture also has nothing to do with this thread. I am against uncontrolled immigration for pragmatical social and economic reasons.

I have explained my point of view repeatedly, but it is you that express the Guardian reader point of view (which you accuse me of!). The typical Guardian reader is not on the same level as the tabloid media reader, the immigrants are largely coming after the jobs of the tabloid reader and of course they are angry and fearful. History says that they are right.

That's where I find it funny that you can accuse me of being a snob. I'm on the side of the ordinary English worker. He is being ripped off, ignored at the ballot box, and is desperate. If I was a true snob, I would say let them all in, as in truth, I have nothing to lose. I don't want that to be though.

I think the common concerns are correct ones and that the system is an elite tool to purposely cause social fragementation, and then you factor in Britain being a police state. Well, it all makes sense. There will be unrest, of course you need to control communications.

Miles you are such a square, your dopey sheep like following of fear mongering facists like Farrage makes that quite clear as do your many assumptions. I don't read the Guardian, I read the Times. If you really think that people choose a newspaper solely because the editorial slant matches their own personal politics then again you are acting like a snob. You don't care about working class people because you have never been one. How many factories have you worked in? How many building sites? Have you ever even dipped your toe into the relatively safe middle classed commune of a kibbutz or socialist work camp ? I know from experience that when you travel to another country you will at first be inclined to do many jobs that others would not but that is not the whole story. Does the fact the I have been willing to do agricultural work before in Italy mean that I was stealing a local persons job? What about working in Biggin Hill airport stores despite not being a Londoner and having to pitch a tent in the local woods to do so ? Was It my fault that local people didn't want to do the night shift? Was I stealing their Job?

You keep talking about uncontrolled immigration and illegal immigration, I am not suggesting either of those things is a good idea. There are already laws in place that mean immigrants caught sleeping rough get deported and are not allowed to return for a year. You have nothing to lose because you don't live here. Economic isolation would be terrible for this country and yet you would be happy to watch it stagnate from afar because it would increase your own fragile feeling of superiority which you remind us all of repeatedly.

Don't forget I have two kids both in their twenties and they have not found it easy to find work but they have and they both remark how a lot of their generation seem to feel that they have a sense of entitlement and are very lazy. I see students like at at University too but rarely are they foreign. When I left school and worked in a shoe factory the previous generation worked much harder than mine and although much of the work was unskilled they were able to earn fantastic money on a piece work system that rewarded their effort. That work ethic is often still their amongst Eastern Europeans whether they are dentists or plumbers. And yes the UK was desperately short of Dentists before many Polish turned up.

If anybody is being fragmentory and divisive it is well landed Politicians like Farrage. I have far more in common with My Lithuanian tattoo artist than I do with him, the Tories and the more reactionary tabloid reader that you have sided with.

[Gandalf]

This has nothing to do with prejudice on my part, GB. I am angry about America (as everybody should be) and I also don't give a hoot for the paralympics, but that has nothing to do with anything in this thread. My being married to someone and living successfully in a different culture also has nothing to do with this thread. I am against uncontrolled immigration for pragmatical social and economic reasons.

I have explained my point of view repeatedly, but it is you that express the Guardian reader point of view (which you accuse me of!). The typical Guardian reader is not on the same level as the tabloid media reader, the immigrants are largely coming after the jobs of the tabloid reader and of course they are angry and fearful. History says that they are right.

That's where I find it funny that you can accuse me of being a snob. I'm on the side of the ordinary English worker. He is being ripped off, ignored at the ballot box, and is desperate. If I was a true snob, I would say let them all in, as in truth, I have nothing to lose. I don't want that to be though.

I think the common concerns are correct ones and that the system is an elite tool to purposely cause social fragementation, and then you factor in Britain being a police state. Well, it all makes sense. There will be unrest, of course you need to control communications.

Miles you are such a square, your dopey sheep like following of fear mongering facists like Farrage makes that quite clear as do your many assumptions. I don't read the Guardian, I read the Times. If you really think that people choose a newspaper solely because the editorial slant matches their own personal politics then again you are acting like a snob. You don't care about working class people because you have never been one. How many factories have you worked in? How many building sites? Have you ever even dipped your toe into the relatively safe middle classed commune of a kibbutz or socialist work camp ? I know from experience that when you travel to another country you will at first be inclined to do many jobs that others would not but that is not the whole story. Does the fact the I have been willing to do agricultural work before in Italy mean that I was stealing a local persons job? What about working in Biggin Hill airport stores despite not being a Londoner and having to pitch a tent in the local woods to do so ? Was It my fault that local people didn't want to do the night shift? Was I stealing their Job?

You keep talking about uncontrolled immigration and illegal immigration, I am not suggesting either of those things is a good idea. There are already laws in place that mean immigrants caught sleeping rough get deported and are not allowed to return for a year. You have nothing to lose because you don't live here. Economic isolation would be terrible for this country and yet you would be happy to watch it stagnate from afar because it would increase your own fragile feeling of superiority which you remind us all of repeatedly.

Don't forget I have two kids both in their twenties and they have not found it easy to find work but they have and they both remark how a lot of their generation seem to feel that they have a sense of entitlement and are very lazy. I see students like at at University too but rarely are they foreign. When I left school and worked in a shoe factory the previous generation worked much harder than mine and although much of the work was unskilled they were able to earn fantastic money on a piece work system that rewarded their effort. That work ethic is often still their amongst Eastern Europeans whether they are dentists or plumbers. And yes the UK was desperately short of Dentists before many Polish turned up.

If anybody is being fragmentory and divisive it is well landed Politicians like Farrage. I have far more in common with My Lithuanian tattoo artist than I do with him, the Tories and the more reactionary tabloid reader that you have sided with.

Honestly, listen to yourself. You can't resist ad hominem attacks, you then accuse me of never belonging to the working classes. I simply said your immigration views reflect those of The Guardian more than any tabloid. I know, I read them all too. What types of jobs do you think my old school leaving friends do back home? Working class, low paying jobs. I did them too from the age of 14.

Your post doesn't warrant any serious response as you are unable to discuss anything rationally or as an adult. You do not feel threatened and so put your fingers in your ears and whistle a merry song whilst national borders are being abused daily.

I will agree that some people can be lazy, but start paying them 3 times the minimum wage, and see how productive they will suddenly become. Like magic, English workers would find the desire to work. That's what the average Polish worker is getting in his or her currency.

Instead you waffle on about how lazy the English are and what a benefit the foreigners are to the economy. Such research shows the benefits to be marginal at best, and it is sheep like you that keep on parroting utter gibberish. And don't forget, your personal anecdotes are worth nothing. They are not intellectual and should be ignored. The words of a wise man, apparently.

[Dia bando]

My take on this is we have our own unskilled labour, do we really need more no, more people
coming in with no skills.
The labour force is flooded with unskilled people, common sense tell us ALL we don't need
any more.
Why let more people into poverty, poor is poor weather your here or in any eastern block country
the facts are, we have people in poverty in this country, adding more people into the poverty
trap is stupid is it not.

[Gandalf]

My take on this is we have our own unskilled labour, do we really need more no, more people
coming in with no skills.
The labour force is flooded with unskilled people, common sense tell us ALL we don't need
any more.
Why let more people into poverty, poor is poor weather your here or in any eastern block country
the facts are, we have people in poverty in this country, adding more people into the poverty
trap is stupid is it not.

Poverty is relative though. If you are earning 6 times the Romanian minimum wage in the UK, you will make sacrifices that the English worker will say 'Bugger off' to. The English worker wouldn't go there to earn a sixth, and so it is a terrible equation. Poverty is poverty, but why should you need to reduce working class wages continually and that is all that unchecked immigration does.

[Dia bando]

My take on this is we have our own unskilled labour, do we really need more no, more people
coming in with no skills.
The labour force is flooded with unskilled people, common sense tell us ALL we don't need
any more.
Why let more people into poverty, poor is poor weather your here or in any eastern block country
the facts are, we have people in poverty in this country, adding more people into the poverty
trap is stupid is it not.

Poverty is relative though. If you are earning 6 times the Romanian minimum wage in the UK, you will make sacrifices that the English worker will say 'Bugger off' to. The English worker wouldn't go there to earn a sixth, and so it is a terrible equation. Poverty is poverty, but why should you need to reduce working class wages continually and that is all that unchecked immigration does.

Very true Miles the thing is cheap labour, make this very attractive to employers, it's has happen
were I live, they have dropped there wages by up to £2 per hour the shit bags.

[Gandalf]

My take on this is we have our own unskilled labour, do we really need more no, more people
coming in with no skills.
The labour force is flooded with unskilled people, common sense tell us ALL we don't need
any more.
Why let more people into poverty, poor is poor weather your here or in any eastern block country
the facts are, we have people in poverty in this country, adding more people into the poverty
trap is stupid is it not.

Poverty is relative though. If you are earning 6 times the Romanian minimum wage in the UK, you will make sacrifices that the English worker will say 'Bugger off' to. The English worker wouldn't go there to earn a sixth, and so it is a terrible equation. Poverty is poverty, but why should you need to reduce working class wages continually and that is all that unchecked immigration does.

Very true Miles the thing is cheap labour, make this very attractive to employers, it's has happen
were I live, they have dropped there wages by up to £2 per hour the shit bags.

If that has happened where you live, then that is evidence. With more countries on the way in then it means more competition and further wage reductions.

How does that help things, I don't know. Not enough housing, mortgages 3 times higher than wage increases, but for the poor wages in decline.

It's a horrible system, and really the UK needs to be out of the EU.

[Dia bando]

My take on this is we have our own unskilled labour, do we really need more no, more people
coming in with no skills.
The labour force is flooded with unskilled people, common sense tell us ALL we don't need
any more.
Why let more people into poverty, poor is poor weather your here or in any eastern block country
the facts are, we have people in poverty in this country, adding more people into the poverty
trap is stupid is it not.

Poverty is relative though. If you are earning 6 times the Romanian minimum wage in the UK, you will make sacrifices that the English worker will say 'Bugger off' to. The English worker wouldn't go there to earn a sixth, and so it is a terrible equation. Poverty is poverty, but why should you need to reduce working class wages continually and that is all that unchecked immigration does.

Very true Miles the thing is cheap labour, make this very attractive to employers, it's has happen
were I live, they have dropped there wages by up to £2 per hour the shit bags.

If that has happened where you live, then that is evidence. With more countries on the way in then it means more competition and further wage reductions.

How does that help things, I don't know. Not enough housing, mortgages 3 times higher than wage increases, but for the poor wages in decline.

It's a horrible system, and really the UK needs to be out of the EU.

Trouble is if we leave the EU, you think the Tory's would be in high glee, the working man would
get fucked over even more. We must remember workers rights ,the EU gives us protection with out
this we would be door mats.
The Tory's love cheap labour, the working man is a low life in there eyes, the eastern block labour
gives them there cheap work force, with wage bills coming down a case of the rich get richer, the
poor get fucked over, the elite few making millions, ever one else in poverty.

[Beanz]

From the age of 14? What were you a chimney sweep? Bulgarians and Romanians are not job stealing demons whatever your faux intellectual reasoning or "friends back home" tell you.

[Andre]

So are you guys planning on getting rid of the pound too?

[Beanz]

So are you guys planning on getting rid of the pound too?

Britian would never get rid of sterling or the monarchy. We will always be an island and different to the rest of Europe.

[Gandalf]

From the age of 14? What were you a chimney sweep? Bulgarians and Romanians are not job stealing demons whatever your faux intellectual reasoning or "friends back home" tell you.

Being a lazy British person with a permanent sense of entitlement, I got a job in a fruit and vegetable shop. I worked weekdays from 6:30 am until schooltime and did the odd Saturday. Few people my age had jobs as they typically didn't need the money.

Schoolfriends today with a terrible attitude of entitlement work in jobs with unsociable hours such as supermarket bakeries and butchers, others work in nightclubs, and others work on the doors of such establishments. Educated friends back home do work for the council, schools and work in banks. The less traditionally educated people are the most vulnerable to the wave of migrants for obvious reasons. It's not fair to allow 5 million people to flood a border in a huge tsunami of cheap human labour.

I do not think migrants are job stealing demons, but they are adding competition to an already crowded country. You seem to think that I get some kind of perverse pleasure in seeing a lot of the things I readily state are happening actually being proven true. I do look at it with an extreme sense of curiosity, but on the whole felt sold out long before all the obvious rot had truly set in. To be a young person in the UK today must be truly soul destroying. It has got a LOT worse in the past decade. There is no hope in the system that is. There is no hope in Labour, or Tories, or Royal blood lines.

Thinking about all the changes that have happened in the past decade is enough to melt minds. Unchecked immigration, illegal wars, banking bailouts, declining living standards, students fees expanding unchecked, zero hours contracts explosion, increased retirement age, the worlds most despicable spying apparatus, millions spent on locking up Assange each year. I am cherry picking with Assange, but what the hell happened to this country? Then the lily fingered will hush it all away and say that you are just so negative and it is all hunky dory. No, it isn't! It's a betrayal of an entire country. We are moving into an age of neo-feudalism and nobody is batting an eyelid.

It isn't going away, it is expanding. The system is not reforming for the better. Young people have been sold down the river and mountains of debt and hopelessness are being foisted upon them stone burdens around the ankles pulling them down. It is a crime that these young people are inheriting such a world. Life was terrible under the Tories last time, but these are far more despicable times. Nothing was reversed from what the Tories did before and now the mail is gone, every utility is much more expensive, houses are unaffordable, stable jobs are vanishing and now there are 5 million extras and they are saying that the NHS is overburdened. Please! The entire system is a con and of course they will spoonfeed the gullible with that Royal family crap. I won't do hippy dippy, let's all love one another stuff. It isn't the truth about the situation. There is a time and a place for immigration, but it is INSANE to allow 5 million in in 10 years. No rational nation would ever do that.

Didn't Cameron also promise the British people a referendum on the EU? It is interesting that nobody ever calls him out on his gibberish. The British people deserve a say in the system and if I was there, I would honestly vote for UKIP next time out. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Labour and Tory are lame horses and need to be put out once and for all. You can either not vote, vote for the fraud parties, or else vote for something completely different. There isn't anything to lose as everything else has been swept from beneath the feet.

[Beanz]

Miles you are a miserable doom monger. Just because you moved to South Korea because it is more racially pure it does not mean everyone shares your uncomfortableness with immigration. I am not in the least bit surprised that you would vote UKIP and as a fraud that is your right. Me,me,me it's all we hear, Selfish fuck.

[mofo2]

From the age of 14? What were you a chimney sweep? Bulgarians and Romanians are not job stealing demons whatever your faux intellectual reasoning or "friends back home" tell you.

Being a lazy British person with a permanent sense of entitlement, I got a job in a fruit and vegetable shop. I worked weekdays from 6:30 am until schooltime and did the odd Saturday. Few people my age had jobs as they typically didn't need the money.

Schoolfriends today with a terrible attitude of entitlement work in jobs with unsociable hours such as supermarket bakeries and butchers, others work in nightclubs, and others work on the doors of such establishments. Educated friends back home do work for the council, schools and work in banks. The less traditionally educated people are the most vulnerable to the wave of migrants for obvious reasons. It's not fair to allow 5 million people to flood a border in a huge tsunami of cheap human labour.

I do not think migrants are job stealing demons, but they are adding competition to an already crowded country. You seem to think that I get some kind of perverse pleasure in seeing a lot of the things I readily state are happening actually being proven true. I do look at it with an extreme sense of curiosity, but on the whole felt sold out long before all the obvious rot had truly set in. To be a young person in the UK today must be truly soul destroying. It has got a LOT worse in the past decade. There is no hope in the system that is. There is no hope in Labour, or Tories, or Royal blood lines.

Thinking about all the changes that have happened in the past decade is enough to melt minds. Unchecked immigration, illegal wars, banking bailouts, declining living standards, students fees expanding unchecked, zero hours contracts explosion, increased retirement age, the worlds most despicable spying apparatus, millions spent on locking up Assange each year. I am cherry picking with Assange, but what the hell happened to this country? Then the lily fingered will hush it all away and say that you are just so negative and it is all hunky dory. No, it isn't! It's a betrayal of an entire country. We are moving into an age of neo-feudalism and nobody is batting an eyelid.

It isn't going away, it is expanding. The system is not reforming for the better. Young people have been sold down the river and mountains of debt and hopelessness are being foisted upon them stone burdens around the ankles pulling them down. It is a crime that these young people are inheriting such a world. Life was terrible under the Tories last time, but these are far more despicable times. Nothing was reversed from what the Tories did before and now the mail is gone, every utility is much more expensive, houses are unaffordable, stable jobs are vanishing and now there are 5 million extras and they are saying that the NHS is overburdened. Please! The entire system is a con and of course they will spoonfeed the gullible with that Royal family crap. I won't do hippy dippy, let's all love one another stuff. It isn't the truth about the situation. There is a time and a place for immigration, but it is INSANE to allow 5 million in in 10 years. No rational nation would ever do that.

Didn't Cameron also promise the British people a referendum on the EU? It is interesting that nobody ever calls him out on his gibberish. The British people deserve a say in the system and if I was there, I would honestly vote for UKIP next time out. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Labour and Tory are lame horses and need to be put out once and for all. You can either not vote, vote for the fraud parties, or else vote for something completely different. There isn't anything to lose as everything else has been swept from beneath the feet.

Having varied opinions about how things actually are will actually be considered racist or insensitive within our ever growing multi cultural society by many people, but absolutely spot on, this is exactly how it is.....an excellent post well thought out!!!