FBI suspected that Ali's KO of Liston was fixed

[cambay411]

Gun to my head I'd say it was. Like Smashup said, the mob had total control of Liston and could have had him lose any way they wanted. The punch may have been much better than it appears, but either way I think Liston just decided he wasn't getting up. Whether the fight was fixed for that round, or what affect the punch actually had, who knows. Nobody even knew how old Sonny was at that point, and he had quit in the first fight so no outcome can really be ruled out.

I'm more interested as to whether Listons death was a cover up. He was found dead in his home of a "heroin overdose", with no apparent history of using the drug, no paraphernalia present and apparently the man had a serious fear of needles.

You can snort Heroin lol and smoke it I believe. But you can definitely snort it.

[Master]

I would normally think that punch by Ali would not knock down Liston. However if you watch the tape, Sonny gets back up and continues to fight. It was only when Natt got involved and told the ref to stop it that Liston stopped fighting. Therefore I think it was a legitimate punch.

You must be thinking of the first fight?

No that was the second fight

[p4pking]

Gun to my head I'd say it was. Like Smashup said, the mob had total control of Liston and could have had him lose any way they wanted. The punch may have been much better than it appears, but either way I think Liston just decided he wasn't getting up. Whether the fight was fixed for that round, or what affect the punch actually had, who knows. Nobody even knew how old Sonny was at that point, and he had quit in the first fight so no outcome can really be ruled out.

I'm more interested as to whether Listons death was a cover up. He was found dead in his home of a "heroin overdose", with no apparent history of using the drug, no paraphernalia present and apparently the man had a serious fear of needles.

You can snort Heroin lol and smoke it I believe. But you can definitely snort it.

Yeah I'm aware of that, apparently they pointed to injection sites on Listons arms as evidence or something though. He'd been in a car accident shortly before his death and was given an IV, so they could have been from that. Not saying he didn't just develop a habit and OD given his career was over, but it's also possible he was taken out.

[IamInuit]

I always believed Liston threw the fight. I never thought for a second that Ali had anything to do with it, or that he wouldn't have won again.

I don't believe in this phantom punch nonsense though. The punch DID land, it wasn't the hardest shot ever thrown but it was quick, landed directly on the chin, and Liston walked right into it.

I believe that Liston was legitimately dropped by that punch, but having planned to throw the fight coming in, decided to act more hurt than he was and take the full count.

First lol at the FBI. Why didn't they do anything about it? Probably half the planet thought it was a fix at the time and it has been part of boxing discussions for over 45 years. I mean really, pre knowledge of racketeering at that level and you do nothing?

I tend to agree that it was a tricky shot and looks can be deceiving.




Evaluate the punch for yourselves. What is it you both see and don't see? Ali was coming forward and over the top and from the angle of the gif appears to nail the sweet spot. Perhaps Liston said screw this and stayed down .

This could just as easily be described as a quit as a fix. Its almost to obvious a fix to be one.

[Beanflicker]

Well I think it discounts the notion that it was a "phantom punch": you can clearly see the shot land on Liston's jaw, and the force knock his head back.

Like I said, I have no doubt that the punch was enough to score a flash knockdown. Liston A) was moving his body into the punch, B) was turning his head into the punch, and C) didn't see the punch coming, and when those three criteria are met, the result is usually a knockdown or a knockout, even when the punch itself isn't a bomb. There is a lot of power added to even a low-powered shot when those criteria are met.

I think even the punch itself is underrated: clearly Ali's not sitting down on it or getting his body into it, but he does get a decent amount of snap from his shoulder into the punch at the end. Wasn't a huge blow, but it wasn't the light tap that most boxing fans make it out to be.

I don't think the punch knocked him out, though. Like I said, I think he was going to throw it going in, got dropped, and decided it would be much easier to just not get it up and embellish the punch. You can see he kinda goes down gingerly, reaching his arms out to break his fall, almost like he tripped on something. He seemed fully conscious until the mid count, then it looked like he suddenly decided he was very rocked.

[X]

we all seem to be talking about the 'phantom punch', which was the second fight.

Unless I'm missing something, the newspaper coverage is actually referring to the first fight??

[ray corso]

The punch was real and on the button. Watch a slow motion of it and you'll see Sonny leaning in with his chin far out in front of his feet. When the shot lands it shakes his body from his sholders to his sides on down! He got hit while leaning in and he got dropped, 100% legit!!
Now getting up is another thing!!!!!! HA!!! Ray.

As for the first fight Sonny quit on the stool after trying to cheat and getting his butt handed to him. He was never beat up like that before and was on his way to a tko loss when he quit! Look at his face if Ali wasn't beating him up the ref or or his seconds were! That was no fix the bookies didn't want to begin with, no believed in Ali to win and the ones that did made no bets.

[mrbig1]

I love Jersey Joe Walcott but he had his head straight up his ass. The count shouldn't have started with Ali standing over Liston. If Liston could take Williams bombs in two fight I know he could handle anything Ali could throw at him. The fact is Liston at his best could never have beaten Ali.

[IamInuit]

I'm more interested as to whether Listons death was a cover up. He was found dead in his home of a "heroin overdose", with no apparent history of using the drug, no paraphernalia present and apparently the man had a serious fear of needles.

Liston's cause of death was officially listed as natural causes believe it or not. There was no needle found but heroin was found in his system. He also had track marks even though his wife swore he had a needle paranoia. It was actually the fact that no needle was found that started the forced hotshotted rumors. He'd been dead for at least a week when he was found.

Its widely accepted that Joe Louis was a heroin user but hated the idea of having to go out and get it so Sonny would go get it for him. After the Ali fight Liston fled to Sweden for several fights because of the backlash. His last fight was against Wepner who he destroyed prior to Chuck getting his shot at Ali. Sonny made a measly 13 grand. Its thought that he may have been dealing a little on the side and dipping into some of the profits provided by Louis and others in their circle.

Just a few tidbits brother.

[p4pking]

I'm more interested as to whether Listons death was a cover up. He was found dead in his home of a "heroin overdose", with no apparent history of using the drug, no paraphernalia present and apparently the man had a serious fear of needles.

Liston's cause of death was officially listed as natural causes believe it or not. There was no needle found but heroin was found in his system. He also had track marks even though his wife swore he had a needle paranoia. It was actually the fact that no needle was found that started the forced hotshotted rumors. He'd been dead for at least a week when he was found.

Its widely accepted that Joe Louis was a heroin user but hated the idea of having to go out and get it so Sonny would go get it for him. After the Ali fight Liston fled to Sweden for several fights because of the backlash. His last fight was against Wepner who he destroyed prior to Chuck getting his shot at Ali. Sonny made a measly 13 grand. Its thought that he may have been dealing a little on the side and dipping into some of the profits provided by Louis and others in their circle.

Just a few tidbits brother.

Cool, definitely didn't know any of that. Either way, Liston had some very bad people around him throughout his career, hell of a story I'm sure.

[johnsebastianmiran]

I have always been a fan of Ali's but I always wondered about that fight so I came to a decision. It didn't look legitimate but it was at best a hard arm punch. There's more, he was going backward and then moved tohis right. He was also on his toes. There isn't much more to say. He doesn't have that kind of power and Liston wasn't hurt as the film rolls on he reminded me of Jack Johnson but there was no sunlight overhead to make him shield his eyes. I loved watching Ali fight but not this rematch. Liston was just disgusted so he looked for a comfortable spot and said good night. Ali really was confused and so was the audience.