Is this the worst era in HW boxing history?

[Max Power]

Well max you say the 70's and 80's are so weak but Foreman and Holmes both did quite well on the come back in there 40's in the best era. Sanders was not shit in the 90's got knocked the fuck out by Rahaman look what happen with him and Wald. Vitali did ok but still lost to a fucking 38 year old Lewis a fat one at that just saying this era not the worst but think to somehow it is great is total different thing. The borthers are top 20 somewhere right now Wald keeps winning maybe higher i really don't know if he will hit the top 10.

Foreman and Holmes coming back to be competitive in the 90's is not that stunning really. Boxing is a sport where experience and ring intelligence can play a greater role than athleticism when an athlete ages. Few sports are like boxing in that regard. Also they were far heftier in their comeback than they were in there younger days.

Young Holmes and young Foreman would have been no better than the others of the 90's, they would have been light and inexperienced, but faster and more output of course to compensate.

Just a quick glance at their opponents in the 90's, Foreman lost to all good contenders, even Axel Schulz. He was extremely lucky against Moorer who had dodge chin and no fucking brains. The most stunning "victory" imo was against Shannon Briggs who he was robbed against. I did not see him fight a Riddick Bowe or a Lennox Lewis or a Mike Tyson. Holmes lost to all good contenders except his stunning upset against Ray Mercer, good HW and win but reaality, Ray was a tanker, he hit hard and could take a lot of punches. He was devoid of skill and was outboxed by Morrison and Damiani as well as others until he scored good punchers chance. The shrewd experienced Holmes at 235lbs was not gonna be so silly. I did not see him fight a Riddick Bowe or a Lennox Lewis and when I seen him fight Mike Tyson it was like "a bull in an antique shop"

Sanders vs Rahman, even fight. Sanders had upper hand early on, gassed a bit, Rahman turned tides and scored a stoppage. I see this an even contest that could go either way anytime. Rahman was a tough opponent too (fuck he KO'd Lewis!) Sanders had a particular combination of features that surprised Wlad who wasn't prepared, I don't think he'd be able to replicate that. Vitali punched Sanders up in a wild shootout right?

Vitali vs Lewis is probably the most hotly controversial HW fight in all history, how that's proof of a bad era idk.

Perharps you should review the next fight Vitali vs Johnson, another top HW prospect and potential "Lewis beater" of the time. I particularly like the final thoughts of Larry Merchant...

"What must Lennox think if he is watching this? Does he see this as an opportunity for a mega fight.. Or does he see it as an opportunity, to "SAIL AWAY INTO THE SUNSET" and call it a day.

The Lennox Lewis of that fight was 250lbs, was training to fight another top HW so was fight ready. He had equal training for the specific opponent as Vitali did, chub isn't necessarily a disadvantGE at HW. Had the full experience of his entire career behind him and at 38, was not exactly ancient for a modern era HW boxer of his height and size especially.

The MAIN thing I see damaging to Lewis' performance here on paper is his years worth of ring rust. I think that was a non issue shortly after the opening of the fight. Lewis pre-fight interview was saying how good he felt and mocked Vitali at how easily he would dispatch him.

00's was not a "shit" era man. Not by a long shot.

[mrbig1]

You know people in this country don't give David Haye enough credit. He would have done very well in any era. He would have easily beat Foreman. His speed and power would have been hard to over come. Ali would have been the only one who could have beaten him. If Michael Moorer could beat Holyfield then Haye would have found it much easier. Vitali didn't even come close to hurting Chisora. Haye made it look easy. In the film I saw in training for the Fury fight Haye was taking Wilder to school. I only wish he would fight more often. When you made a ton of money like he has, it hard to have love for the sport anymore.

[Spicoli]

I have little faith in Haye beating the best in different eras when he won't even compete in his own. Seriously...Haye would have found beating Holyfield much easier Come on man. Really.

[Mr140]

Max i didn't say the 00s was a shit era i said that it was not as great as you were saying. Holmes should of had the belt against McCall he won that fight and was robbed. Foreman gave Holyfeild a good fight and Briggs he should of got the nod have you seen the fight. When you are in 40's you are not at the top of your game and Larry was out for some time when he got in the ring with Tyson. Rahman was tough guy but i mean a old Holyfeild beat him up after his win with Lewis. Lennox was not shot but at 38 was on the slide and 250 i think was kinda heavy for him looked kinda fat in that fight but i watch it again. Anyhow i just saying that 00's arent bad but i don't think they shit on every era i feel there like the 80's only better because of the brothers pretty much thats about it.

[Max Power]

Max i didn't say the 00s was a shit era i said that it was not as great as you were saying. Holmes should of had the belt against McCall he won that fight and was robbed. Foreman gave Holyfeild a good fight and Briggs he should of got the nod have you seen the fight. When you are in 40's you are not at the top of your game and Larry was out for some time when he got in the ring with Tyson. Rahman was tough guy but i mean a old Holyfeild beat him up after his win with Lewis. Lennox was not shot but at 38 was on the slide and 250 i think was kinda heavy for him looked kinda fat in that fight but i watch it again. Anyhow i just saying that 00's arent bad but i don't think they shit on every era i feel there like the 80's only better because of the brothers pretty much thats about it.

Alright maybe I overstate the case just a little bit. You seem to be reasonable about it. Sure we can view any era in both positive and negative light. I just get so sick of the "worst HW era ever" thing getting thrown around all the time, as if all the professional HW boxers don't even know how to box or don't train anymore, modern professional combat athletes.

I guess you are right I may have exaggerated my own claims a bit to counter the thread sorry. The overall principles of what I am saying do play factors though.

Your triangulation of fights does not really add up to evidence. You can triangulate to make Holmes look bad too etc.

I ain't taking anything away from George and Larry. They are great boxers no doubt and would be a factor in any era. Beaters of Lennox Lewis though they are not (unless they are lucky). Yeah I seen the Briggs Fo9reman fight and agree it was a robbery. Well done on that one, that should have been one of his best wins.

[Mr140]

Ok good enough i am not one to say this era is that bad i agree both the brothers are great fighters. As for Haye vs Holyfeild kinda got to go with Holyfeild all day chin to good and workrate is way to high for Haye. Haye gets weak in later rounds and his chin not glass but not strong enough to take Holyfeild all day. Shit Holyfield i felt deserved a draw in the rematch with Lewis wish he was not 37 and kinda having hart problems for ever by the time they finally fought. Lennox was great but he got Tyson and Holyfeild at the right time.

[Mr140]

Also Holyfeild in his prime was not really a punching bag he was a great boxer and counter puncher also. His prime was over after he beat Big daddy mostly because of his hart. He also got hep b as well not sure how Holyfeild fought as long as he did and was aloud to.

[Max Power]

Ok good enough i am not one to say this era is that bad i agree both the brothers are great fighters. As for Haye vs Holyfeild kinda got to go with Holyfeild all day chin to good and workrate is way to high for Haye. Haye gets weak in later rounds and his chin not glass but not strong enough to take Holyfeild all day. Shit Holyfield i felt deserved a draw in the rematch with Lewis wish he was not 37 and kinda having hart problems for ever by the time they finally fought. Lennox was great but he got Tyson and Holyfeild at the right time.

Alright look now your getting into the realm of opinions. I'm of the opinion that Lennox would have always beaten Holyfield and Tyson. Your opinion is also very valid too as I admit there is great chances he couldn't. I don't think he deserved a draw in his rematch with Lewis though, I feel he won pretty easily and convincingly each time. I never understood that one.

As for Holyfield's "prime", sure of course he was a great boxer and not really a punch bag, that was an exaggeration of course.

But looking at his 200+ HW record run up to Riddick Bowe, those were not exactly stellar fighters. The old versions of Foreman and Holmes being shining examples, the fact he could not easily KO them is imo a factor bringing Holyfield down to Earth a bit for Haye. Further by saying Holyfield was prime at HW for only a small 7 fight window where he was conveniently unbeaten excuses all of his subsequent losses similar to what ppl do for prime Tyson and imo is a bit of a cop out.

He struggled with much lesser fighters than Haye, and was beaten by them also. Sure he had his ailments as did every boxer, his heart condition mended as did his hep b which were only factors in 2 fights and considering they were the clinical effects of massive steroid abuse I think we can accept that. Without it he wouldn't have been a HW. Then again, neither would have Haye!

[Max Power]

I have little faith in Haye beating the best in different eras when he won't even compete in his own. Seriously...Haye would have found beating Holyfield much easier Come on man. Really.

I think Haye and Holyfield would have been a terrific match up as well. And yeah if Moorer can beat him, why not Haye who could bust Moorers ass into next week.

Bloody look at Haye man, he is an excellent boxer. He's just injury prone, inactive and wants the fast road only. Shame on him there but.'

Holy has the chin but Haye has the punch. Haye is faster and longer and far slicker than Holyfield. Haye barely gets hit. Holyfield is a bit of a punch bag.

It's Holyfield's toughness and determination that makes him a difficult opponent for Haye, not his skills. I rate Holyfield higher obviously though because he did more.

[Spicoli]

I have little faith in Haye beating the best in different eras when he won't even compete in his own. Seriously...Haye would have found beating Holyfield much easier Come on man. Really.

I think Haye and Holyfield would have been a terrific match up as well. And yeah if Moorer can beat him, why not Haye who could bust Moorers ass into next week.

Bloody look at Haye man, he is an excellent boxer. He's just injury prone, inactive and wants the fast road only. Shame on him there but.'

Holy has the chin but Haye has the punch. Haye is faster and longer and far slicker than Holyfield. Haye barely gets hit. Holyfield is a bit of a punch bag.

It's Holyfield's toughness and determination that makes him a difficult opponent for Haye, not his skills. I rate Holyfield higher obviously though because he did more.

I'd pay the price alone just to see Haye attempt to stay in close and swap combinations with Holyfiled in a hypothetical . Holyfield was a better boxer than giving credit for though stubborn as a mule. I'd take him 7 days of the week to track Haye down, when the legs get wide and Haye is sucking wind a bit and touch him like he has never come close to being touched with combination punching. Haye also brought his ballyhooed power in with a guy said to have a weak chin and lack of fire in Wlad and did very little to nothing with it except look for singles and wait around. He really blew it. Holy would match his speed and power as it went and just be the much bigger storm.

[VG_Addict]

I don't know how anyone can say this era is good after Thompson-Solis.

[Max Power]

I have little faith in Haye beating the best in different eras when he won't even compete in his own. Seriously...Haye would have found beating Holyfield much easier Come on man. Really.

I think Haye and Holyfield would have been a terrific match up as well. And yeah if Moorer can beat him, why not Haye who could bust Moorers ass into next week.

Bloody look at Haye man, he is an excellent boxer. He's just injury prone, inactive and wants the fast road only. Shame on him there but.'

Holy has the chin but Haye has the punch. Haye is faster and longer and far slicker than Holyfield. Haye barely gets hit. Holyfield is a bit of a punch bag.

It's Holyfield's toughness and determination that makes him a difficult opponent for Haye, not his skills. I rate Holyfield higher obviously though because he did more.

I'd pay the price alone just to see Haye attempt to stay in close and swap combinations with Holyfiled in a hypothetical . Holyfield was a better boxer than giving credit for though stubborn as a mule. I'd take him 7 days of the week to track Haye down, when the legs get wide and Haye is sucking wind a bit and touch him like he has never come close to being touched with combination punching. Haye also brought his ballyhooed power in with a guy said to have a weak chin and lack of fire in Wlad and did very little to nothing with it except look for singles and wait around. He really blew it. Holy would match his speed and power as it went and just be the much bigger storm.

From the start I'm not insisting Haye beats Holyfield. I am just saying they are rather evenly matched. Holyfield struggled with opponents much lesser than Haye.

That's just the thing, Haye does NOT stay in close and swap combinations, that isn't his style, Haye is not an idiot. I didn't see Holyfield ever beat down anybody like that who was close to David Haye in slickness.

Yeah on the other hand Holyfield wasted Mike Tyson and that can't be dismissed either, but there is still controversy over whether or not Holyfield could have done that to prime Mike Tyson isn't there (you know, the guy with the impenetrable defence).

The problem with your Wladimir Klitschko analogy is that this is Wladimir friggin Klitschko, possibly the best HW of all time, or if not top 3 who barely gets hit, barely loses a round, could have KO'd Haye with 1 clean punch and had a massive range advantage over Haye and by the way has a chin not anywhere NEAR as weak as guys try to pretend he does.

Furthermore Holyfield is something of a HW featherfist (he was not a hard puncher compared to the general competition) whereas Haye has definite power at HW. Holy's HW KO's are via accumulation and fatigue mainly.

Also Holyfield was never anywhere near as fast or as slick as Haye at any respective stage of their careers, that statement was completely baseless. In fact Haye is among the fastest HW boxers and probably CW's... Of all time!

[Spicoli]

I have little faith in Haye beating the best in different eras when he won't even compete in his own. Seriously...Haye would have found beating Holyfield much easier Come on man. Really.

I think Haye and Holyfield would have been a terrific match up as well. And yeah if Moorer can beat him, why not Haye who could bust Moorers ass into next week.

Bloody look at Haye man, he is an excellent boxer. He's just injury prone, inactive and wants the fast road only. Shame on him there but.'

Holy has the chin but Haye has the punch. Haye is faster and longer and far slicker than Holyfield. Haye barely gets hit. Holyfield is a bit of a punch bag.

It's Holyfield's toughness and determination that makes him a difficult opponent for Haye, not his skills. I rate Holyfield higher obviously though because he did more.

I'd pay the price alone just to see Haye attempt to stay in close and swap combinations with Holyfiled in a hypothetical . Holyfield was a better boxer than giving credit for though stubborn as a mule. I'd take him 7 days of the week to track Haye down, when the legs get wide and Haye is sucking wind a bit and touch him like he has never come close to being touched with combination punching. Haye also brought his ballyhooed power in with a guy said to have a weak chin and lack of fire in Wlad and did very little to nothing with it except look for singles and wait around. He really blew it. Holy would match his speed and power as it went and just be the much bigger storm.

From the start I'm not insisting Haye beats Holyfield. I am just saying they are rather evenly matched. Holyfield struggled with opponents much lesser than Haye.

That's just the thing, Haye does NOT stay in close and swap combinations, that isn't his style, Haye is not an idiot. I didn't see Holyfield ever beat down anybody like that who was close to David Haye in slickness.

Yeah on the other hand Holyfield wasted Mike Tyson and that can't be dismissed either, but there is still controversy over whether or not Holyfield could have done that to prime Mike Tyson isn't there (you know, the guy with the impenetrable defence).

The problem with your Wladimir Klitschko analogy is that this is Wladimir friggin Klitschko, possibly the best HW of all time, or if not top 3 who barely gets hit, barely loses a round, could have KO'd Haye with 1 clean punch and had a massive range advantage over Haye and by the way has a chin not anywhere NEAR as weak as guys try to pretend he does.

Furthermore Holyfield is something of a HW featherfist (he was not a hard puncher compared to the general competition) whereas Haye has definite power at HW. Holy's HW KO's are via accumulation and fatigue mainly.

Also Holyfield was never anywhere near as fast or as slick as Haye at any respective stage of their careers, that statement was completely baseless. In fact Haye is among the fastest HW boxers and probably CW's... Of all time!

Haye efforted 6 fights in a total of 6 yrs at heavyweight. Not exactly comparitive to Holyfields 'struggles' when on top or twice as many fights in equal time. I have no doubt that a decent version of Cooper could have rocked a Haye, a Moorer would have snapped his head with a southpaw jab, or a granddaddy Holmes cut him with an elbow and be rather frustrating. Etc etc. What I have to go on is being snuck by Monte Barret, a majority win over Valuev, the same escaped circus oddity a 1001 yr old Holyfield arguably deserved the nod over just prior and a no show with Wlad after talking himself up in Broner fashion when the chips were down.

Staying in close would not be left as an option, thats the key to tracking down movers looking for showy shots. Being slick and being a combination puncher with speed of hand are two different animals. Haye concentrates as much on getting out as he does getting off and has never come close to the volume or power Holyfiled puts on him. Haye would have been sucked in.

Yep, Holyfield wasted Mike Tyson. Took the best version available when people said he was literally "a walking dead man" and beat him like a drum. 90, 91 of course are speculative as with any fight after a player pulls out. Would Haye have beat Fury like a drum..who knows. Maybe he'll get his shot at that glory yet.

I actually like Wlad. He has improved. But Hayes tunnel vision and lack of game plan was pretty predictable. When you start making T shirts and again making a "glass jaw" the lone focus because of your 'Hayemaker' you know there is no plan B. Haye was tamed in that fight and he settled.

Holyfield was not a feathefist. Come on. Again...Where and when was Hayes 'definite' power at heavyweight? This is being overblown currently with a Wilder and again, who? Power is only as good as who you are putting in on. Holyfields left hook hurt nearly all the major players he faced and was a tremendous combination puncher. You have to take accumulation and breaking a guy down over leaving it in your pocket when it matters the most, surely.

Holyfield was just as fast of hand as Haye. True story. Maybe not as 'slick' or shifty, even herky jerky as I never actually said that but had quality speed on that left and straight right.

Haye -is- entertaining and frankly I used 'shot in the divisions arm' a few years ago, it needed turned on its head and Haye arrived at the party but all he has done is hang out in the kitchen and talk. Politics, injury, drama, whatever...less talk, more walk. Its passing him by at a rapid pace.