sugar ray robinson vs roy jones jr

[Max Power]

Yeah I know. But I rate him at his optimum level which was at a higher weight. I don't think we need to consider a green Roy against Robinson.

Anyway SRR was tough and hit hard but it isn't like Roy was whacked all over the shop or was featherfisted either.

[mikeeod]

In what fight did Roy show ring intelligence? Floyd, Hop, JMM set traps, make adjustments...etc., showing ring intelligence. In what fight did Roy show ring intelligence n make an adjustment?

Statements like that make u look not very knowledgable. Roy was a phenom who was unbelievably fast and could hit very hard at 160-168. He was hard to hit because of his speed, reflexes, and unorthodox style (plus the fact that guys were afraid to take a solid shot from him). Roy was not a very skilled fighter, however, as he broke many of the rules of fundamental boxing. Floyd has great natural ability, but even better skills. Watch Floyd use his feet, parry, slip, catch and duck as part of his defense. That is skill. Watch Hop vs Tito n see how he throws an uppercut off the ropes to bait Tito into throwing the hook so he can counter with a right hand. That is a trap n that is skill. James Toney or Sweet Pea standing in front of a guy throwing 10-12 punches n not getting hot once because they use their shoulders, elbows, gloves or duck/slip to avoid punches n counter.

Roy is like PAC Man, both very talented, physically gifted, and unorthodox but neither are what I would consider skilled. Neither would be a great trainer because you can't teach what they do, it is natural, not learned SKILL...

[Max Power]

In what fight did Roy show ring intelligence? Floyd, Hop, JMM set traps, make adjustments...etc., showing ring intelligence. In what fight did Roy show ring intelligence n make an adjustment?

Statements like that make u look not very knowledgable. Roy was a phenom who was unbelievably fast and could hit very hard at 160-168. He was hard to hit because of his speed, reflexes, and unorthodox style (plus the fact that guys were afraid to take a solid shot from him). Roy was not a very skilled fighter, however, as he broke many of the rules of fundamental boxing. Floyd has great natural ability, but even better skills. Watch Floyd use his feet, parry, slip, catch and duck as part of his defense. That is skill. Watch Hop vs Tito n see how he throws an uppercut off the ropes to bait Tito into throwing the hook so he can counter with a right hand. That is a trap n that is skill. James Toney or Sweet Pea standing in front of a guy throwing 10-12 punches n not getting hot once because they use their shoulders, elbows, gloves or duck/slip to avoid punches n counter.

Roy is like PAC Man, both very talented, physically gifted, and unorthodox but neither are what I would consider skilled. Neither would be a great trainer because you can't teach what they do, it is natural, not learned SKILL...

I am sorry but I consider Roy's talents extremely skilful, moreso than Pac.

You make fair statements regarding fighters with high ring IQ as Floyd and Pea for instance and Hopkins but I fail to see what that has to do with Sugar Ray Robinson who was not exactly Floyd Mayweather himself!

I'm talking by comparison with Robinson, a guy from middle of last century and you rebut with comparisons with elite modern fighters. Where is the relevance of your statement? Other than pointing out thae difference between IQ and reaction skills, defensive techniques etc.

I give you your examples are true, but SRR wasn't one of them.

[mikeeod]

Watch Ray walk Fullmer into what is described as "The Perfect Left Hook". Ray was a very skillful fighter who at 147 was as naturally gifted and fast as any fighter who ever lived. He also could box beautifully behind his jab, breaking the body down and using clever tactics to set up angles and walk guys into his big shots. Remember, Robinson was the guy who said boxing wasn't about size, strength or speed, it was about geometry. He could use his speed and skill to box and frustrate hall of fame caliber guys, n use his boxing IQ to set them up for his one punch power. He also could bite down and go toe to toe with animals like Basilio. The guy was a master boxer who could outbox Gavilin, a rugged fighter who could hang with Basilio n Lamotta, and had the power to stop a bull like Fullmer with one shot.

Roy was no where near that caliber of fighter or versatility. Again, he was unorthodox and unbelievably gifted (plus bigger than Ray), so I'm not saying that Roy had no chance to win. I do think that Ray should be favored and that over a series, Ray wins the majority of fights. To say that Roy stops him easy, that is just asinine. Guys say that stuff to try and ruffle feathers...etc., but it just sounds stupid.

[VG_Addict]

No, but seriously, to be winning a fight against a naturally much bigger man while being old and WAY past your prime, as well as winning the MW title a few more times afterwards just shows how good Robinson was.

[SlimTrae]

BUMP! Saw this under @Mr.Big thread

SRR was not the greatest middleweight but he was at welterweight and possibly p4p. Roy could possibly win.

You are still consistent 7 years later with your choice!!!

Yeah I know. But I rate him at his optimum level which was at a higher weight. I don't think we need to consider a green Roy against Robinson.

Anyway SRR was tough and hit hard but it isn't like Roy was whacked all over the shop or was featherfisted either.

He's not here ...I don't think...But the dude wore on me.....He replied to us all...we came at him! Max Power!!!!!!!!!

In what fight did Roy show ring intelligence? Floyd, Hop, JMM set traps, make adjustments...etc., showing ring intelligence. In what fight did Roy show ring intelligence n make an adjustment?

Statements like that make u look not very knowledgable. Roy was a phenom who was unbelievably fast and could hit very hard at 160-168. He was hard to hit because of his speed, reflexes, and unorthodox style (plus the fact that guys were afraid to take a solid shot from him). Roy was not a very skilled fighter, however, as he broke many of the rules of fundamental boxing. Floyd has great natural ability, but even better skills. Watch Floyd use his feet, parry, slip, catch and duck as part of his defense. That is skill. Watch Hop vs Tito n see how he throws an uppercut off the ropes to bait Tito into throwing the hook so he can counter with a right hand. That is a trap n that is skill. James Toney or Sweet Pea standing in front of a guy throwing 10-12 punches n not getting hot once because they use their shoulders, elbows, gloves or duck/slip to avoid punches n counter.

Roy is like PAC Man, both very talented, physically gifted, and unorthodox but neither are what I would consider skilled. Neither would be a great trainer because you can't teach what they do, it is natural, not learned SKILL...

Mike! I think I am guilty of this as well!! WHat I noticed about this post is how you used "unorthodox" to state Roy wasn't really skilled (I agree), but then used the same word to describe it as positive for Ray LOL!!


Overall I liked all the arguments presented on both sides.

What I think is (close) to fact as that NEITHER were at their best at MW!
I give SRR that at WW & RJJ @SMW/LHW.

Ray lost several times we know at MW.
Roy fought absolutely no ATGS at MW. In fact -after winning the MW from Hopkins who at that time neither tried to fight hard nor clinch was his best fight.
So at MW It really is a tossup IMO on who would win.

Both had fast twitch muscles. One was proven to have a chin, the other was never chin tested at MW.
SRR's chin stood at every Weight he contended whereas Roy turned out to be the greatest ATG- with a crappy chin. Just god awful--when his reflexes let him down.

Roy was blessed to live in an era of ripped fuel- which got banned.
Ray made his own concoctions..I think drinking blood from steaks LOL!


Now here is where it gets concrete for me- 1st matchup Roy is a live dog. However Roy proved he couldn't fight 70x without getting KTFO'd by whose who and nobodies whereas Ray lost 19...1 stoppage.
Thats durability.


Last- because there are way more skilled fighters today...I would have to conclude that since Ray fought guys like Jake 5x and refused Burley, very few against dudes like Kid Gavilan...he would have his hands full.





This video proves IMO he was a fast bad dude ---back then. Today...looking at this aint no way he is faster than Roy with his hands or combos seen in the video above...both were in their rookie years..so they are evenly matched. Pacman would have outsped him easily...but then again...if we put Pac or Roy in the past....that speed wouldn't be there...they got faster by watching the greats before them.

Everybody in every field, sport, business is better than yesteryear's. Hell I just got a text from @NoSavingByTheBell who gave me a video of a young girl playing bass to John Coltrane note4note!!...she kicking ass on bass like to hell with Ron Carter, Stanley Clark , Marcus Miller...But I digress!!!

Nevertheless there IMO is no comparing creators (Ray) to perfectors (Roy) objectively so I guess everybody is right!!!

[mrbig1]

Guys who in the hell did Roy joke jr ever fight. A green Hopkins A big fat lazy James Toney. Other than that he fought has been and nobodies. HBO protected him.

[Master]

Guys who in the hell did Roy joke jr ever fight. A green Hopkins A big fat lazy James Toney. Other than that he fought has been and nobodies. HBO protected him.

Green Hopkins or not, he was never going to beat that Roy Jones. No version of Hopkins, even the one that beat Trinidad, was going to beat prime Jones Jnr.

It is not Roy's fault Toney had weight issues either, he could only beat the guy's in front of him.

The way Roy beat fighters showed he had higher levels when he required them. Roy beat the best middleweight, super middleweight at the time, cleared the light heavyweight and went up and beat a heavyweight champion.

The main other fighters that he could have faced never left their country.

[smashup]

Guys who in the hell did Roy joke jr ever fight. A green Hopkins A big fat lazy James Toney. Other than that he fought has been and nobodies. HBO protected him.

After what happened to the G Man at the hands of Nigel Benn RJJ wanted no part of Benn, Jones and G Man were close and that incident put the fear of god in to Jones.

A lot of people believe he swerved Eubank as well for similar reasons.

I don't recall Jones ever calling out any of the top British fighters back in the day

[SlimTrae]

Guys who in the hell did Roy joke jr ever fight. A green Hopkins A big fat lazy James Toney. Other than that he fought has been and nobodies. HBO protected him.

Roy Joke Jr....Ouch!!!!!!!!

[smashup]

Fighters back in the Robinson days were naturally tougher guys used to fighting 10-12 times a year in 15 round fights with refs that just let fights go on and on with the fighters taking fierce punishment.

Robinson would have murdered Roy Jones every day of the week, he fought Jake Lamotta twice in 3 weeks and even squeezed another fight in between that.

Look through his Boxrec stats and how often he fought - it's insane, the guy was literally fighting once a month through a Pro career spanning around 25 years.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/9625?offset=0

[imp]

In this fantasy match up would SRR beat all RJJ opponents and vice versa?

Another thing, James Toney wouldn’t have mentioned the weight if he had won.

[Master]

In this fantasy match up would SRR beat all RJJ opponents and vice versa?

Another thing, James Toney wouldn’t have mentioned the weight if he had won.

Roy Jones would not have lost to the middleweight opponents that Robinson did. No one "murders" a peak Roy Jones Jnr, they could barely win a round against him.

[SlimTrae]

SRR was capable of beating all of RJJ's foes @ MW. Again taking into consideration how he got ascribed the title P4P- he could fight well at any weight so it is possible. But again...RJJ best years were at SMW & LHW.

& vice versa. Considering RJJ didn't stay at MW very long, yet with his twitch muscles, I'd say he would have landed on Lamotta just as often as SRR did.
Hard to say vs Kid Gavilan as they wouldn't have met under RJJ standard's..But I'd like to think KId would have done like himself or Burley- they didnt really care much about weight disparity.

SRR did come over the weight of 150 in their encounter & since he did beat Kid, RJJ would probably win just because his weight adding power wouldn't have been hurt.
BUT! I do wonder who did RJJ ever fight with defense like this:

[SlimTrae]

James Toney IMO was RJJ's best defensive opponent, but with little discipline and weight drained...RJJ also knew Toney had balooned up..he knew when to pick JT at the right time.