The Old-Timers would destroy the New Guys

[Max Power]

I've seen that one before. And it serves to show that even in this tribute which is supposed to showcase Liston, he is...

(a) slow as a wet wig
(b) uncoordinated
(c) lacking in fundamental skills
(d) utterly ridiculous.

The correct disposition for Liston is..

He dominated over a division filled with cruiserweights OR bums OR a combination thereof OR caught decent opponents on heavy loss streaks.

AND

What a pathetic champion that he could not even defeat a 22 year old cruiserweight named Cassius Clay with no power and fundamentally poor skills! But then again we can barely blame Liston because both fights were shady (Liston retired with a fucked shoulder and then took a dive because his family were threatened) and Liston was likely very old by then.

If you don't swallow the dive thing then you are admitting that Liston has a jaw so glassy that it makes Morrison and Klitschko's chin look like steel!

So we can SEE that 210lb Liston is far slower and imo of otherwise comparable technique (I think Fury even looks better personally, Liston doesn't move and can't even keep his hands up). That's pretty sad that a HW champ from the golden era is slower than a fighter 50lbs heavier!! But somehow this guy is going to outdo the Klitschko's, 2 of the best jabbers in history by slow motion left hand paws from Liston??

You didn't REALLY swallow that story about Liston did you? His jab had some moments to be sure but "Best jab of all time" or near to it is romantic hogwash from an era long gone.

Same with his power... Completely overrated. He could outpunch Chris Byrd I've no doubt or Eddie Chambers but he could not match a REAL modern HW puncher.

One of Liston's best win opponents is Patterson... P.A.T.T.E.R.S.O.N! A man who would struggle in amateur boxing today, look at him!

Back in Liston's day boxing was only a rudimentary sport, not fully complete and worked out yet. Today it is a globalised and professional sport.

[Beanflicker]

I've seen that one before. And it serves to show that even in this tribute which is supposed to showcase Liston, he is...

(a) slow as a wet wig
(b) uncoordinated
(c) lacking in fundamental skills
(d) utterly ridiculous.

The correct disposition for Liston is..

He dominated over a division filled with cruiserweights OR bums OR a combination thereof OR caught decent opponents on heavy loss streaks.

AND

What a pathetic champion that he could not even defeat a 22 year old cruiserweight named Cassius Clay with no power and fundamentally poor skills! But then again we can barely blame Liston because both fights were shady (Liston retired with a fucked shoulder and then took a dive because his family were threatened) and Liston was likely very old by then.

If you don't swallow the dive thing then you are admitting that Liston has a jaw so glassy that it makes Morrison and Klitschko's chin look like steel!

So we can SEE that 210lb Liston is far slower and imo of otherwise comparable technique (I think Fury even looks better personally, Liston doesn't move and can't even keep his hands up). That's pretty sad that a HW champ from the golden era is slower than a fighter 50lbs heavier!! But somehow this guy is going to outdo the Klitschko's, 2 of the best jabbers in history by slow motion left hand paws from Liston??

You didn't REALLY swallow that story about Liston did you? His jab had some moments to be sure but "Best jab of all time" or near to it is romantic hogwash from an era long gone.

Same with his power... Completely overrated. He could outpunch Chris Byrd I've no doubt or Eddie Chambers but he could not match a REAL modern HW puncher.

One of Liston's best win opponents is Patterson... P.A.T.T.E.R.S.O.N! A man who would struggle in amateur boxing today, look at him!

Back in Liston's day boxing was only a rudimentary sport, not fully complete and worked out yet. Today it is a globalised and professional sport.

Good post and you should also mention that Sonny Liston only fought 54 times and thats really not enough times to get good at anything.

You can't get good at anything worthwhile doing it only 54 times. If Jimi Hendrix only played a guitar 54 times nobody would have went to see him or listened to his records because he would have stunk.

Archie Moore fought over 200 times and would have killed Liston

[Max Power]

Well no beans I'm not sure of that either.

Actually it's a complicated response this time because, experience definitely IS the major ingredient in getting better at boxing (as well as other things too) but the number of fights period does not always tell the whole story. You see for a start, how many fights at a certain weight range tells a different story to how many fights at another. One of the main reasons I am so stubbord regarding the modern HW's (and I'd extend that to other weight ranges somewhat too considering their size compared to their olden counterparts) is that what was historically called a "HW" would now be called a CW or even a light HW.

When we look at David Hayes HW record today for instance we view it as only a handful of fights and look at it compared to Muhammad's record and think well he's not even a HW. But in reality, Muhammad's record in ACTUAL HW fights is only 28-4, the rest being sub 200, and because of modern day dehydration to weigh in, a lot of Haye's CW fights were not only HW fights in Ali's day.. By fight time they in fact WERE 200+ fights even in our times!!!

Obviously when you look at these guys records, including Listons, they just don't cut the mustard compared with today. It's also a neat explaination whenever anybody mentions "workrate" or "speed" in disrespect to modern fighters because OF COURSE they should perform better here because the modern guy is a couple of weight ranges above them!! Except we don't really see that, in the case of Liston, we can barely find ANY boxer who is slower!!!

But the plot thickens, and it's to do with modern methods...

Modern boxers, in general, you will find special examples otherwise, but the norm, is that modern boxers have much more amateur experience, PLUS have enormous amounts more sparring and pad work, so in fact they DO have more ring time, training and experience than the old timers, not just in weight range, but in total!

But most importantly.. It is utterly BS that the old timers way of fighting so frequently produced better boxers! They were not trained properly in that time for each fight and they did not recover between each fight properly. It was detrimental to their performance completely!

Evander Holyfield was once asked to givwe a speech on how past champions were the better and so on.. But as he gave the interview he swayed from the script. He told that how modern boxers were trained far better than they were in the past, how they did not have to fight as often anymore but because of their management and preparation they were doubly effective, and anybody who says otherwise is someone who did not have to fight against that kind of opposition.

I think Evander was right!

Also, as a pretty important side note, it can be shown that the heavier the weight of a fighter and their opposition in general, the fewer fights they can withstand. A featherweight can obviously fight more than a heavyweight because the punches are lighter and more bearable.

At HW the damage is maximal. In the old days a HW had more fights in general because their competition was not what we today consider HW. Today the punches are so hard that it's inconceivable that any fighter could withstand 100 fights at HW!

That kind of puts into perspective, all of it, just how special dominant HW champs are today to have had so many fights as they have.

[Beanflicker]

How could a guy with 50 fights compete with a guy with 200 fights it's damn near impossible!

[Max Power]

Well what is the quality of the opponents that that 200 fight guy fought. No modern fighter has 200 fights but for example I would stack up 45 fight Floyd against 200 fight Robinson no worries.

And I don't put it like it would be competitive, I would seriously be surprised if Robinson would land even a single meaningful punch the entire fight!

[FinitoElDinamita]

Well what is the quality of the opponents that that 200 fight guy fought. No modern fighter has 200 fights but for example I would stack up 45 fight Floyd against 200 fight Robinson no worries.

And I don't put it like it would be competitive, I would seriously be surprised if Robinson would land even a single meaningful punch the entire fight!

Robinson and Leonard.. who is better? Id like your professional take..

[Max Power]

Leonard definitely.

Faster, fitter, stronger, more technical (defensive and cleaner punching).

Leonard probably all round one of the best. Deserves his rep of "all time".

[Beanflicker]

Well what is the quality of the opponents that that 200 fight guy fought. No modern fighter has 200 fights but for example I would stack up 45 fight Floyd against 200 fight Robinson no worries.

And I don't put it like it would be competitive, I would seriously be surprised if Robinson would land even a single meaningful punch the entire fight!

I don't think so man, one thing that you have to consider is that times were much tougher back then, boxers didn't have luxuries and distractions like fighters had after 1980. Times were tough which made for a much tougher man both mentally and physically. All there was to do back then was fight or read a newspaper or book, so if you weren't keen on reading you were more likely throwing hands whenever you had the chance.

That's one of the reasons a modern great would get eaten alive if brought back in a time machine to the good old days. They are too pampered and would probably cry without their Twitter LOL

[Max Power]

I'll grant you people might have been tougher back in those days, you cannot measure some things. But I don't think that made them better at sports, even combat sports.

[Beanz]

Well what is the quality of the opponents that that 200 fight guy fought. No modern fighter has 200 fights but for example I would stack up 45 fight Floyd against 200 fight Robinson no worries.

And I don't put it like it would be competitive, I would seriously be surprised if Robinson would land even a single meaningful punch the entire fight!

I love the objectivity in this post. Absolutely no current boxer nut huggery going on at all. That's the great thing about your posting Max. The way you fully admit your super heavy weight theory translates so well across time that even Lumbering bear Primo is now an ATG Purely because of his size. You have to admire how you can see through Tyson Furys clumsy oaf act and cut through to the great boxing skills and massive power he shows in each and every fight. You are a borderline genius and all the millions of words written by former world champions, trainers, managers, promoters, journalists and fans in praise of former greats is just all BS. Every time I watch old footage of any fighter from before the 1990's I will dismiss any evident skill I may mistakenly think I am witnessing and remember that Aussie Max the former boxer has now enlightened me and that the guy I am watching is a bum facing a tomatoe can. Frazier,Ali,Shavers,Foreman,Lyle,Louis are all feather fisted and would be destroyed by Cunningham and Fury and when I am reading about fighters like Greb and Wilde I will remember that however experienced and talented the writer never mind if the scribe has boxed before themselves or come from a long line of Boxers we already have Max's esteemed opinion that they are bums, and that should be good enough for us. Thanks Max, I have seen the light.

[Max Power]

Well what is the quality of the opponents that that 200 fight guy fought. No modern fighter has 200 fights but for example I would stack up 45 fight Floyd against 200 fight Robinson no worries.

And I don't put it like it would be competitive, I would seriously be surprised if Robinson would land even a single meaningful punch the entire fight!

I love the objectivity in this post. Absolutely no current boxer nut huggery going on at all. That's the great thing about your posting Max. The way you fully admit your super heavy weight theory translates so well across time that even Lumbering bear Primo is now an ATG Purely because of his size. You have to admire how you can see through Tyson Furys clumsy oaf act and cut through to the great boxing skills and massive power he shows in each and every fight. You are a borderline genius and all the millions of words written by former world champions, trainers, managers, promoters, journalists and fans in praise of former greats is just all BS. Every time I watch old footage of any fighter from before the 1990's I will dismiss any evident skill I may mistakenly think I am witnessing and remember that Aussie Max the former boxer has now enlightened me and that the guy I am watching is a bum facing a tomatoe can. Frazier,Ali,Shavers,Foreman,Lyle,Louis are all feather fisted and would be destroyed by Cunningham and Fury and when I am reading about fighters like Greb and Wilde I will remember that however experienced and talented the writer never mind if the scribe has boxed before themselves or come from a long line of Boxers we already have Max's esteemed opinion that they are bums, and that should be good enough for us. Thanks Max, I have seen the light.

LOL Yes, very amusing post Beanz, lovely touch giving me a dose of my own sarcasm, thanks for that. But alas, alas, not a very accurate portrayal of my posts I'm afraid. You see I've never used weight as the singular ingredient for my argument like you and so many others always jump to first. Otherwise I would have Valuev and Primera at number 1 wouldn't I and not Mike Tyson or David Haye ranked anywhere right!?

Obviously in that post you seemed to so objectively read into all of that, I mentioned the word QUALITY.

We are talking about Robinson who fought a couple hundred fights worth of absolute shit compared to Floyd who fought top opponents. Even after the artificial jacking up of Robinson's opponents and bummifying of Floyd's, one cannot fail to notice there is something different about Floyd's opponents.

Could Robinson go through all of Floyd's opponents 4 times over? Of course not! Why? Because they were far more proficient fighters that require many weeks, months of preparation for unlike the beggars and junk yard hobos that Robinson fought which required only a few laps of the block to knock out!

Completely objective post right there! LOL

Seriously though, I'm not so stupid as to say that those writers were wrong and that nobody prior to 1980 had any fucking skills, that's obviously not the case, but it's also abundantly clear that those skills have progressively gotten heaps better and that pressing the ancient warriors over the current ranks is wrong.

You think I'm the only one who believes Wlad would put away Louis within a round or 2? Or Floyd do in Sugar Ray Robinson with ease? I think most all free thinking fans know it's true, even if they don't want to admit it!