A few Willie Pep videos that I Like.

[Beanflicker]

pep is better defensively than floyd for sure and is probably a bit better than pernell but that can be debated. floyd has greate defense but definitely isnt in the top 5 defensive fighters of all time like pep and pernell.

How is Pep better than Floyd defensively? He could fight great on the outside. Floyd, Pernell, Locche, Bhop, Toney, ect could fight great on the outside and inside. And you know what? I don't remember ever seeing any of those guys get knocked out.

[Mr140]

To be to fair to Pep he should not even boxed anymore after the plane crash he was really badly injured. Most people thought he was done. He did mange to beat Saddler in rematch who wasa man who held two division tiles at once and defended them as well so he was great him self.

[Master]

I always wondered why Pep was rated higher than Saddler even though he had beaten him a few times. The aeroplane crash and injuries he suffered was one reason and the other was because he probably was his bogey man which some great fighters seem to have.

[johnsebastianmiran]

Let's not forget that Saddler wasn't the cleanest fighter there was. Whether the thumbs he put into the eyes of opponents was intentionality or not, the pace that he set had something to do with his opponents feeling uncomfortable at the urinals or unable to sit down and do the unmentionable without remembering they were OK before Sandy met them in that square. He just let his punches go and was very physical and many boxers lacking the big punch like Pep wished they had not cut classes in high school. Pep used his footwork to very end of his career even after the plane crash and you don't see Floyd using his all that much lately. He is still the man to beat and he draws the really large gates.

[powerpuncher]

pep is better defensively than floyd for sure and is probably a bit better than pernell but that can be debated. floyd has greate defense but definitely isnt in the top 5 defensive fighters of all time like pep and pernell.

How is Pep better than Floyd defensively? He could fight great on the outside. Floyd, Pernell, Locche, Bhop, Toney, ect could fight great on the outside and inside. And you know what? I don't remember ever seeing any of those guys get knocked out.

you also dont see those guys fighting as many fights as pep either. pep had 136 fights the first time he got KO'd and only his second loss. he wasnt fighting bums either. he was fighting experienced fighters and some HOFers. and as was just mentioned, saddler was a very dirty fighter. he also was a very hard hitter. and lastly, saddler was probably a better fighter than just about everybody any of those guys faced (there may be a few exceptions).

you have to realize that im sure that those fighters that you mentioned would have been KO'd at least once after 136 fights. his defense allowed him to win all of those other fights without getting KO'd.

[Vendettos]

He lost only 11 fights of 241.

Saddler was 3 of those.

He was stopped 6 times in his 241 fight career.

Saddler was 3 of those.


That actually makes Peps record seem better to me, because half his TKO losses and just under 25% of his total losses were by his bogey man.

Lets not forget they both had some dirty old school tricks. Saddler had a good chin and a good punch on top of a decent skill set. But the fact is he fought about 100 less fights than Pep and lost 5 times more.

Records are for DJs yes, but if Saddler had Peps number in the ring, I'm sure Pep was happy knowing he could figure out guys in 100 more fights than Saddler

[Beanflicker]

Gotta look at quality too, though. Different eras. People go "goo goo" over big numbers in the win columns, but the VAST majority of the guys he fought were complete stiffs. We're talking guys with losing records, guys with under 15 fights, ect.

Just go through his record.

He beat Sandy Saddler for the FW title, and these were the records of his next 4 opponents:

10-13
39-27
45-20
29-13

He defends the FW title a few times, who does he fight?

14-11
68-22
30-26
28-16
28-23

Then he gets beat by Saddler.

16-19
8-18
52-14
51-14
17-5
29-2
9-23

Beats Corky Gonzales and loses again to Saddler

3-0
3-14
18-12
20-7
53-9 (who he's knocked out by)
50-30
27-12
ect ect

The guy fought a lot of bums. He fought some killers but he fought a ton of guys who didn't belong in the ring with him, too.

I'm sure Saddler was real jealous that Pep could figure out guys with near-losing records...

[powerpuncher]

some of his fights came against people who werent great but he would fight multiple of them in a months time. records can also be deceiving because unlike now, fighters were thrown to the wolves early in their careers and got a ton of losses because they fought experienced fighters way too early. and remember that floyd said his toughest fight was against augustus who had a record of 22-16-4 when they fought. so you can imagine that pep fought guys with records which werent visually pleasing but were still very good or at least very awkward fighters.

[Beanflicker]

some of his fights came against people who werent great but he would fight multiple of them in a months time. records can also be deceiving because unlike now, fighters were thrown to the wolves early in their careers and got a ton of losses because they fought experienced fighters way too early. and remember that floyd said his toughest fight was against augustus who had a record of 22-16-4 when they fought. so you can imagine that pep fought guys with records which werent visually pleasing but were still very good or at least very awkward fighters.

I'm not as easily impressed with guys fighting multiple stiffs in a month. If you look at a top guy like Floyd, Pacquiao, ect, they're fighting EVERY DAY with their sparring. I know a legit fight is much different than sparring, but a lot of these guys that Pep fought could offer little but a mediocre sparring session for him.

I'm not sure why guys get so much credit for fighting so much when the quality wasn't there. George Foreman beat fight bums in one night, and everyone ridiculed him and called it a fiasco and a joke. Do people think Floyd or Pacquiao couldn't fight 4 or 5 bums a month and build up a record like that?

[powerpuncher]

some of his fights came against people who werent great but he would fight multiple of them in a months time. records can also be deceiving because unlike now, fighters were thrown to the wolves early in their careers and got a ton of losses because they fought experienced fighters way too early. and remember that floyd said his toughest fight was against augustus who had a record of 22-16-4 when they fought. so you can imagine that pep fought guys with records which werent visually pleasing but were still very good or at least very awkward fighters.

I'm not as easily impressed with guys fighting multiple stiffs in a month. If you look at a top guy like Floyd, Pacquiao, ect, they're fighting EVERY DAY with their sparring. I know a legit fight is much different than sparring, but a lot of these guys that Pep fought could offer little but a mediocre sparring session for him.

I'm not sure why guys get so much credit for fighting so much when the quality wasn't there. George Foreman beat fight bums in one night, and everyone ridiculed him and called it a fiasco and a joke. Do people think Floyd or Pacquiao couldn't fight 4 or 5 bums a month and build up a record like that?

again, i will mention augustus. supposedly floyds toughest fight. an awkward, tough fighter that gave floyd fits. do you not think that there were many of those types of fighters around back in the day? i believe that floyd would have a few losses on his record if he fought as often as old fighters because you just run into problem matchups and bad days. pac is the same way. i think that he could definitely run into fighters that would give him major problems if he fought that frequently.

i just dont think that most of peps fights were against bums. he probably had a few that were against fighters that just werent very good, but i would guess that most of his fights were against solid opponents that gave effort which is tiring after a while.

[Beanz]

Bogey Flicker, you are starting to sound like a broken record. It's all very well to accuse people of lacking perspective and going "goo goo" over fighters from generations other than ours, but then you must apply the same strict criteria yourself.

It's seems you are on a mission to elevate FMJ above all others and dismiss any one else. There are plenty of people who rate Floyd and other modern fighters whilst being able to recognise talent from other eras. Pep is not a legend because everybody who rates him has lost all perspective, he is a legend because he earned it. Deal with it.

[Beanflicker]

Bogey Flicker, you are starting to sound like a broken record. It's all very well to accuse people of lacking perspective and going "goo goo" over fighters from generations other than ours, but then you must apply the same strict criteria yourself.

It's seems you are on a mission to elevate FMJ above all others and dismiss any one else. There are plenty of people who rate Floyd and other modern fighters whilst being able to recognise talent from other eras. Pep is not a legend because everybody who rates him has lost all perspective, he is a legend because he earned it. Deal with it.

I'm the broken record? It's the same thing every time from you.

1) Accuse me of being wrong/prejudiced/on a mission, yet offer no logic whatsoever as to why I am wrong/prejudiced/on a mission.

2) Set up straw man arguments by taking what I said out of context or put words in my mouth and argue those points.

At no point in this thread did I say Pep WAS NOT a legend, wasn't a great fighter, wasn't a great defensive fighter, ect. It's not all or nothing. When I say "I think Pep is overrated", that's not the same as saying "Willie Pep is pure shit and doesn't deserve ANY recognition". I think he was a fantastic fighter and a boxing legend, but his reflexes/speed/defensive ability, while clearly formidable, were not on the level of a Floyd Mayweather or Pernell Whitaker. That's all I'm saying.