Scientific Fraud

[El Kabong]

No but catchy studies lead to lots of money

In some cases people with decades of experience are telling me I'm right

If what your doctor said killed your baby what would you say?

Ask that last question to yourself

[bcollins]

No but catchy studies lead to lots of money

Great job repeating what I just mentioned a few posts ago. Of course they lead to grants. As usual, I think you have a misconception - this time about how grants work. A university PI on, say an NSF grant for example, can only receive monetary compensation for two months of his or her normal salary. All budgets proposed for a grant must be meticulously outlined and submitted with the grant proposal. Any and all traveling done on grant money must be outlined and included in the proposal. Grants aren't awarded for profit, at least to university academics - which comprise the greatest majority of climate scientists - they are awarded to facilitate research. Most of the money goes toward the research - lab materials, salary for lowly grad students, post-docs, etc. - and traveling is usually only green-lighted for conferences, or travel to a research site. If you have never been to an academic conference, it isn't exactly what you'd call a vacation. Think insurance seminar in terms of fun. It's work related, no matter where you go. Most time is spent in the hotel and at the talks.

Writing a grant proposal usually takes a couple of months at a bare minimum and potentially much longer. Here's a link to the NSF guidelines and policies for their grants (they are one of the primary sources of scientific grants in the US):

http://www.nsf.gov/pubs/policydocs/p...1/gpgprint.pdf

It's worth two month's salary to subject yourself to this process, for which the prime beneficiaries are typically student researchers. Those damn greedy scientists!

In some cases people with decades of experience are telling me I'm right

Good for you. I work in a professional scientific environment surrounded by international experts in their respective fields. UTK keeps close ties with the Oak Ridge National lab, so some of these people were world famous scientists when you were cutting teeth. You'll forgive me if I defer to their expertise in these matters. Or not. Don't really care either way.

If what your doctor said killed your baby what would you say?

Wow. I've always heard that empathy is a strong indicator of character. Since I don't know you personally, I can only hope for your sake that is a fallacy.

To answer your question, the issue is not the doctor's fault. If something does happen to our baby, it will be from natural causes. If a doctor did something that led directly to harm the baby, through carelessness or deliberate misconduct, I would first pursue all legal options, then go back to my country roots if needs be. I would hold the doctor accountable - much like the scientific community holds its members accountable for the results they publish.

Ask that last question to yourself

I have been asking myself more questions in that regard during the last few weeks than you can possibly imagine. I've certainly spent more thought on that than you seem to have spent on understanding anything about climatology, or science in general.

[El Kabong]

My question regarding the doctor was a hypothetical and certainly not aimed at your one on the way. My point being even in the medical field mistakes get made even though everyone studied, they had the best intentions, etc....Thalidomide was once prescribed by doctors who were smart and well intentioned but it didn't turn out to be a safe/harmless drug.

There are loads of examples like that...yes odds are you still trust your doctors and rightly so but doctors and scientists are not perfect they are still learning (I hope).

You feel free to trust your scientists, I don't mind. But I don't buy what they are selling because it's been wrong in the past. They said Ice Age then we started warming and they changed their tune to Warming which stopped in 1998 and then they thought up the catch all Climate Change...it's the boy who cried wolf. They never want to account for the Sun and how hot it's burning, Orbital Forcing, Milankovitch Cycles.... nope JUST Anthropogenic CO2 that's it. And why? Coal power plants produce CO2, cars produce CO2, factories produce CO2.... and policies have been made which hamstring our economy while China and other developing industrial nations more than make up what CO2 we try to keep out of the atmosphere so again what is the point of this? Save the world? The world will be here looooong after we're gone. Save human life? Actually if enacted and enforced Green policies will kill more people than help.

But hey you buy the bill of goods the scientists sell you. Maybe they are right this time.... I'll wait for the next tweak to their hypothesis which will be along any year now

[bcollins]

My question regarding the doctor was a hypothetical and certainly not aimed at your one on the way. My point being even in the medical field mistakes get made even though everyone studied, they had the best intentions, etc....Thalidomide was once prescribed by doctors who were smart and well intentioned but it didn't turn out to be a safe/harmless drug.

There are loads of examples like that...yes odds are you still trust your doctors and rightly so but doctors and scientists are not perfect they are still learning (I hope).

You feel free to trust your scientists, I don't mind. But I don't buy what they are selling because it's been wrong in the past. They said Ice Age then we started warming and they changed their tune to Warming which stopped in 1998 and then they thought up the catch all Climate Change...it's the boy who cried wolf. They never want to account for the Sun and how hot it's burning, Orbital Forcing, Milankovitch Cycles.... nope JUST Anthropogenic CO2 that's it. And why? Coal power plants produce CO2, cars produce CO2, factories produce CO2.... and policies have been made which hamstring our economy while China and other developing industrial nations more than make up what CO2 we try to keep out of the atmosphere so again what is the point of this? Save the world? The world will be here looooong after we're gone. Save human life? Actually if enacted and enforced Green policies will kill more people than help.

But hey you buy the bill of goods the scientists sell you. Maybe they are right this time.... I'll wait for the next tweak to their hypothesis which will be along any year now

The thing that bothers me is the contradiction you don't even seem to be aware of making. On one hand you say "odds are you trust your doctors and rightly so" even though they have been wrong in the past. I trust that in a serious medical situation that you would do the same - even though they have been wrong in the past.

Why does that same rationale not extend to climate scientists? Since they have been wrong in the past (and I still argue that a better phrase is that they made the best conclusions the could with the data they had available at the time), you are deadset against giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Why the double standard? I'm very confident you would defer to the expertise of a doctor, yet you have made it clear that you do not defer to the expertise of a climatologist. Imagine you had a condition and you didn't believe the first doctor, so you get a second opinion. Then a third. Then you get the opinion of all leading specialists in that field and 97% concur about your condition. Do you still disbelieve? That seems highly illogical to me, and I just can't understand it.

You feel free to trust your scientists, I don't mind. But I don't buy what they are selling because it's been wrong in the past.

So has medical science, but I bet you buy that one.

They never want to account for the Sun and how hot it's burning, Orbital Forcing, Milankovitch Cycles.... nope JUST Anthropogenic CO2 that's it.

Come on. Really? So you truly believe that the world's leading experts in climatology haven't considered these effects in their research? Are you the only person who has access to Google, and thus are the only person who has heard of these phenomenon? Most of these experts also teach, and my guess is that they've taught these topics so long they no longer need any notes to do so. And yet you, with the power of the internet, have uncovered possibilities that - again - world's leading experts haven't yet considered? Do you know enough about these topics off the top of your head to discuss them with people who hold PhDs in the field? I'll wait while you consult Google again.

Coal power plants produce CO2, cars produce CO2, factories produce CO2.... and policies have been made which hamstring our economy while China and other developing industrial nations more than make up what CO2 we try to keep out of the atmosphere so again what is the point of this? Save the world? The world will be here looooong after we're gone. Save human life? Actually if enacted and enforced Green policies will kill more people than help.

Again, this is all your opinion. History is absolutely littered with dire economic predictions which - gasp - didn't come true. You attack climatologists for making erroneous predictions, but apparently economists never make a mistake. This is the part where I get to roll my eyes.

Your arguments are filled with double standards. You can repeat them all you like - you've made it clear that your mind is made up - but when you try to make the same argument apply to two logically different conclusions, you just look like you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[El Kabong]

How much faith do you put in these scientists who in the 1990's were baffled by El Niño....you're telling me they can get confused by a weather cycle but their computer models for the next 50-100 years are spot on?

Yes I doubt their predictions.


Medical science is a good point there have been failings there but there has also been tangible success. Where's the tangible success for the global warming crowd? There has been 0 warming since 1998 but we're pumping out more CO2....odd that considering how close to killing the planet we are. By Al Gore's clock we have about 1 1/2 years left before the whole world burns. You can tell me Al is not a scientist but correct me if I'm wrong he won the Nobel Prize......along with the IPCC whose models (along with Gore's) are well off the mark when compared to reality.

[Andre]

This world is fucked up, just look at the tobacco industry and cancers,agricultural chemicals and lymphomas, pharmaceuticals masking of root causes.The Sugar industry and diabetes!
They all have their own experts paid well to find shit out for the affirmative. Science and medicine is split legally by the buck.Doctors have calendars with chemical companies names printed on them sitting on their desks FFS. McDonalds build their restaurants in childrens hospitals out here .

[bcollins]

How much faith do you put in these scientists who in the 1990's were baffled by El Niño....you're telling me they can get confused by a weather cycle but their computer models for the next 50-100 years are spot on?

As far as I can tell, the El Niño phenomenon of that era were something of an anomaly. Scientists had not seen such an occurrence in modern times, so of course they were put off. You seem to believe that climate science should be perfection incarnate while you allow medical science to grow and learn. Science is science, bud. With the few exceptions I've noted previously, all science must defer to the current data and change to incorporate new information. That's the whole damn point. If human beings suddenly generated the ability of telekinesis, then medical science would be baffled and then work hard to try to explain it. That's the whole game.

Yes I doubt their predictions.

This is my shocked face.

Medical science is a good point there have been failings there but there has also been tangible success. Where's the tangible success for the global warming crowd? There has been 0 warming since 1998 but we're pumping out more CO2....odd that considering how close to killing the planet we are. By Al Gore's clock we have about 1 1/2 years left before the whole world burns. You can tell me Al is not a scientist but correct me if I'm wrong he won the Nobel Prize......along with the IPCC whose models (along with Gore's) are well off the mark when compared to reality.

There has been 0 warming since 1998. Bold claim - especially with absolutely zilch to back it up. You can say that you have an 18 inch pecker too, but until you provide proof, no one is gonna believe you.

I challenge you to offer scientific proof of this claim. Using a source of respected data - you can choose, so long as it is a reputable source (and www.idontbelievesciencecauseidontunderstandit.com does not count) - I challenge you to show me the veracity of your claim. When I get a chance, which may be a couple of days, I'll gather data from at least three different sources and do the analysis myself. This is not modeling - we're not talking about predicting the future - but using established data to support your claim.

Note that links to websites making this claim do not constitute proof. I want to see your data and your method for making such a claim. Time to walk the walk instead of talking the talk.

[bcollins]

This world is fucked up, just look at the tobacco industry and cancers,agricultural chemicals and lymphomas, pharmaceuticals masking of root causes.The Sugar industry and diabetes!
They all have their own experts paid well to find shit out for the affirmative. Science and medicine is split legally by the buck.Doctors have calendars with chemical companies names printed on them sitting on their desks FFS. McDonalds build their restaurants in childrens hospitals out here .

You are correct in a lot of ways. Industry scientists are usually bought and paid for. I'm talking about true academics. We're usually the reason corporations have to hire their own 'experts' - we actually go by what the science says, instead of the man writing the checks. Those type of scientists are scum in my opinion. They confuse the laymen with complex terminology and a whole bunch of bullshit, which is clearly crap to someone in the field. Unfortunately, a lot of people nowadays just believe whatever side lines up with their personal ideology rather than trying to determine where the truth lies.

[El Kabong]

Well alright let's talk specifics

Atmosphere
Nitrogen - 78%
Oxygen - 21%
Argon - 1%
Trace Elements - 0.1%

Of that CO2 varies from 0.03% to 0.04%

Roughly 96% of THAT CO2 is produced by NATURE leaving around 3.5% produced by humans and it's destroying the entire world.


CO2 isn't even the most prevalent greenhouse gas, that title goes to H2O by a wide margin. But CO2 is destroying the climate..... or 3.5% of the CO2 released in to the atmosphere is. Seems legit

[Andre]

This world is fucked up, just look at the tobacco industry and cancers,agricultural chemicals and lymphomas, pharmaceuticals masking of root causes.The Sugar industry and diabetes!
They all have their own experts paid well to find shit out for the affirmative. Science and medicine is split legally by the buck.Doctors have calendars with chemical companies names printed on them sitting on their desks FFS. McDonalds build their restaurants in childrens hospitals out here .

You are correct in a lot of ways. Industry scientists are usually bought and paid for. I'm talking about true academics. We're usually the reason corporations have to hire their own 'experts' - we actually go by what the science says, instead of the man writing the checks. Those type of scientists are scum in my opinion. They confuse the laymen with complex terminology and a whole bunch of bullshit, which is clearly crap to someone in the field. Unfortunately, a lot of people nowadays just believe whatever side lines up with their personal ideology rather than trying to determine where the truth lies.

Governing laws can get bought and sold.

[bcollins]

Well alright let's talk specifics

Atmosphere
Nitrogen - 78%
Oxygen - 21%
Argon - 1%
Trace Elements - 0.1%

Of that CO2 varies from 0.03% to 0.04%

Roughly 96% of THAT CO2 is produced by NATURE leaving around 3.5% produced by humans and it's destroying the entire world.


CO2 isn't even the most prevalent greenhouse gas, that title goes to H2O by a wide margin. But CO2 is destroying the climate..... or 3.5% of the CO2 released in to the atmosphere is. Seems legit

Seems like you're dodging the challenge. I'm aware of the chemical composition of our atmosphere - I learned that in middle school. I want you to put up or shut up.

There has been 0 warming since 1998.

This is your claim. Show me evidence to support your claim. Find a source of data that you believe that is also reputable; i.e., I assume you won't choose NASA/NOAA. There are other sources of data from many other countries. The only criteria is that it must be a reputable source of data - not just a joe schmoe website.

Use this data to convince me of your claim. When I get some extra time, I'll use multiple data sources to rebut your claim. You must also detail your method of arriving at your conclusion.

Simply citing a website is not sufficient. I want to see the details. Since you pose this claim as true, then back it up.

[Andre]

I still think our biggest problem will come from the ocean because current change there means irreversible global climate change. We kill shit out there too, large amounts of it underwater forests, we kill the reefs that have taken hundreds of thousands of years to grow and we till underwater mountains like the earth with drag nets in search of orange roughy and other deep sea fish. Then theres the upper reefs bleached dry by the ozone layer depletion. We shave old forests bare for cash and turn it into fields with cows that release pure methane back up there and wonder why the rain clouds are attracted elsewhere. Meanwhile petrol is cheaper than bottled water.

We could now argue that by polluting the air with cars and industry we now create a barrier of smog that is protecting some things from the increased suns radiation from depletion .

Swings and roundabouts pay as you come pay as you leave,they'll tax you on what ever they can tax you on and try to balance the books with that percentage paying for people to back their cause; meanwhile the real issue is out there slowly grinding to a halt and about turn around and work in reverse.

[bcollins]

Here's a link to the UK's Hadley Centre site. I believe they have already compiled data sets, if you want to take a look.

Met Office Hadley Centre observations datasets

[El Kabong]

NOAA admitted to the warming "plateau" in their 2012 State of the Climate Address and RSS the satellite data backed up this claim. People no doubt say "It's nothing, it means nothing unless this plateau lasts 20 years". This warming "stagnation" is a model buster....but I suppose that means nothing.

I'm not going to launch a satellite, I'm not going to start collecting my own data because I'm not a scientist and while I suppose your point could be to get me to admit as much but again the professional scientists have been wrong which is why NASA and NOAA have revisited their computer models and made adjustments. Are the adjustments better? Closer to the truth? Who is to say? Scientists made predictions for an ice age in the 1970's that has not come to fruition. They've predicted warming and the stagnation poked holes in that theory. Now it's a general cover all of climate change by using hand picked random weather events....I mean what's the difference between Y2K and The Mayan Calendar and these Climate scientist when they are fudging data and/or skewing data to achieve the hypothesis they want. No empirical data, no correlations, models that are consistently wrong....why trust that science? If you're looking for answers and you're constantly wrong then you're no different than someone not looking for answers or one who is wrong on purpose.

But go ahead and ridicule me

[bcollins]

World Meteorological Organization: (Lots of links to other datasets)

World Meteorological Organization Homepage | WMO

University of Virginia Climatology Office: (another link page)

Online Climate Data Sources

RealClimate.org: (See the contributors page for the administrators and their credentials, also with links to multiple datasets)

RealClimate: Rossby waves and surface weather extremes