Who is the next boxing superstar?

[ross]

The young, dedicated and focused 80s Tyson is a completely different proposition.

You mean the Tyson that was fighting such dangerous foes as Mike Jameson, David Jaco, Sammy Scaff, Marvis Frazier, and Steve Zouski?

Oh dear.

Hell, let's throw Tyson's amateur opponents in there as well shall we? How far back in time are going? What about before he started boxing? He hadn't beaten anyone then!

I was (obviously) thinking of the Tyson who beat everyone he fought, including Holmes, Spinks, Biggs etc etc. But no, let's judge him on the guys he fought as an up and coming novice. That always how fighters are judged.

I mean that Ali guy was good, but who did he beat in his first ten fights? Overrated fraud!

Can you expound on the "etc., etc.," I challenge you or anyone else on this forum to name elite, HOF level fighters that Tyson beat. Look at the three you named: Holmes was past his best and fighting without a tune up, Spinks who was a great light heavy but undersized at heavy n had beaten 3 other guys at the weight, and BIGGS. Tyrell Biggs?!? Here's a clue: when you are standing up for a guy's quality of opposition and you have to include Tyrell Biggs as one of his top 3 wins, don't send that post. I like Mike Tyson and I think he gets treated unfairly regarding his personal life, but zit is just a known fact that Mike feasted on a pathetic division. He never beat a prime fighter on the level of Evander, Bowe, Lewis, Wlad...etc.

You could easily pick holes over who they beat.

Which elite HOF fighters did Lewis beat? He drew with Holyfield and then got gifted a decision in the rematch. Struggled with Mercer and was very lucky to get the decision. Holmes won clearly against mercer. The same Holmes that Tyson smashed 4 years earlier. He got knocked out by mikes sparring partner the same sparring partner that again, Holmes should have got a decision over. he got knocked out by Rahman

Holyfield... Bowe? Who did Bowe beat? He got pushed to 12 rounds by a fighter that Mike bounced off the canvas

Bowe... Holyfield and no one else. He got battered by golota who Tyson made quit! He got taken rounds and hurt by Herbie Hide He was gifted a decision against Tubbs another old Tyson opponent who Mike wiped the floor with.

Now tell me the best wins each of those has and how its any better than anything Mike could have done.

Wlads best win? He's up there for longevity but he has no HOF stand out wins either. That shouldnt detract from his career because there was no one else good enough to beat him. (Has plenty of KO losses during his "prime" though.) Same as Mike in the eighties. He was too good. He didn't get dropped, or wobbled or draw, or gifted decisions. There was no dispute over who the best was and he avoided no one in the top ten.

[mikeeod]

The young, dedicated and focused 80s Tyson is a completely different proposition.

You mean the Tyson that was fighting such dangerous foes as Mike Jameson, David Jaco, Sammy Scaff, Marvis Frazier, and Steve Zouski?

Oh dear.

Hell, let's throw Tyson's amateur opponents in there as well shall we? How far back in time are going? What about before he started boxing? He hadn't beaten anyone then!

I was (obviously) thinking of the Tyson who beat everyone he fought, including Holmes, Spinks, Biggs etc etc. But no, let's judge him on the guys he fought as an up and coming novice. That always how fighters are judged.

I mean that Ali guy was good, but who did he beat in his first ten fights? Overrated fraud!

Can you expound on the "etc., etc.," I challenge you or anyone else on this forum to name elite, HOF level fighters that Tyson beat. Look at the three you named: Holmes was past his best and fighting without a tune up, Spinks who was a great light heavy but undersized at heavy n had beaten 3 other guys at the weight, and BIGGS. Tyrell Biggs?!? Here's a clue: when you are standing up for a guy's quality of opposition and you have to include Tyrell Biggs as one of his top 3 wins, don't send that post. I like Mike Tyson and I think he gets treated unfairly regarding his personal life, but zit is just a known fact that Mike feasted on a pathetic division. He never beat a prime fighter on the level of Evander, Bowe, Lewis, Wlad...etc.

You could easily pick holes over who they beat.

Which elite HOF fighters did Lewis beat? He drew with Holyfield and then got gifted a decision in the rematch. Struggled with Mercer and was very lucky to get the decision. Holmes won clearly against mercer. The same Holmes that Tyson smashed 4 years earlier. He got knocked out by mikes sparring partner the same sparring partner that again, Holmes should have got a decision over. he got knocked out by Rahman

Holyfield... Bowe? Who did Bowe beat? He got pushed to 12 rounds by a fighter that Mike bounced off the canvas

Bowe... Holyfield and no one else. He got battered by golota who Tyson made quit! He got taken rounds and hurt by Herbie Hide He was gifted a decision against Tubbs another old Tyson opponent who Mike wiped the floor with.

Now tell me the best wins each of those has and how its any better than anything Mike could have done.

Wlads best win? He's up there for longevity but he has no HOF stand out wins either. That shouldnt detract from his career because there was no one else good enough to beat him. (Has plenty of KO losses during his "prime" though.) Same as Mike in the eighties. He was too good. He didn't get dropped, or wobbled or draw, or gifted decisions. There was no dispute over who the best was and he avoided no one in the top ten.

Holyfield: beat prime Bowe (undefeated), Tyson, Michael Moorer, Buster Douglas, Ray Mercer, Foreman (past prime), and drew (should've lost) and lost (should've won) against Lennox.
Lennox: beat Tua, Evander (past prime), Vitali, Tyson (past prime), Rahman, Grant, Mercer, Golota (destroyed past prime but prior to Tyson), Ruddock (post Tyson but more convincingly).
Bowe: Seldon, Prime Evander, Coetzer, Cooper, Gonzalez, Herbie Hide (how many knock downs again?!?), Larry Donald and Golota.
Tyson: Holmes, Spinks (prime ?), Tubbs, Mitch Green, Trevor Berbick, Marvis Frazier, Tony Tucker (prime), Greg Page, Golota, Seldon, Bruno, bone crusher smith, ferguson, tyrell Biggs, Carl Williams.

Looking at those names, in my opinion, Tyson had superior competition to Bowe (but Bowes win over Evander trumps any win for Tyson), but inferior to both Evander and Lennox. Tyson losing to Douglas is equally ugly to Evanders loss to Moorer and Lennox losing to Rahman n Oliver. Lewis and Evander both avenged those losses convincingly, and Tyson did not. I would also argue that Mike was back to form, a 15-1 favorite and Evander was not what he was during his prime when they fought. Evander took mike apart and anyone who says that would've gone differently at any point of either guys' career is kidding themselves or just delusional.

[Master]

Tyson fighting Holyfield in 88/89 would have been a great time for Tyson to win.

[El Kabong]

Every single thread always comes back to Mike Tyson and just how fucking unbeatable he was in his "prime" an era so mysterious people can't pin it down to an actual date

Was Mike Tyson a great boxer?

YES

Did Mike Tyson have a tough era?

HELL NO!


Back to the question at hand: Who will be the next boxing superstar?

NOT MIKE TYSON!!!!

[ykdadamaja]

Every single thread always comes back to Mike Tyson and just how fucking unbeatable he was in his "prime" an era so mysterious people can't pin it down to an actual date

Was Mike Tyson a great boxer?

YES

Did Mike Tyson have a tough era?

HELL NO!


Back to the question at hand: Who will be the next boxing superstar?

NOT MIKE TYSON!!!!

BS.... Tyson for Holmes's left overs to a large degree, but Holmes's leftovers weren't slouches. Many of them went on to hold titles or be seriously dangerous contenders.

Tyson also had really tough guys that went on to long careers- wasn't until Bowe and Holyfield came along, most notably Bowe, who separated what a real HW champion should be and be dominant at it.

Bowe should have never fought Holyfield the second time around, now looking back at it.

[El Kabong]

BS.... Tyson for Holmes's left overs to a large degree, but Holmes's leftovers weren't slouches. Many of them went on to hold titles or be seriously dangerous contenders.

Tyson also had really tough guys that went on to long careers- wasn't until Bowe and Holyfield came along, most notably Bowe, who separated what a real HW champion should be and be dominant at it.

Bowe should have never fought Holyfield the second time around, now looking back at it.

Guys BOTH Holmes and Tyson fought: Holyfield, Michael Spinks, Carl Williams, James 'Bonecrusher' Smith, Marvis Frazier, and Trevor Berbick. That's it and to be honest Holmes did better vs Holyfield and better vs Smith which can't be argued.

Tyson did NOT fight other guys that gave Holmes a hard time: Snipes, Witherspoon, Shavers, Norton either because they retired, drugs ruined their careers, or they never recaptured their form which earned them the shots vs Holmes but the point is Mike Tyson didn't have a great era of difficult fighters and when real fighters entered his division they took over.

Bowe's career peaked and plummeted while Tyson was in prison now had Tyson actually fought him what would have happened? We can speculate but the fight never happened. Look at the records of Holyfield and Lewis and see the names they fought which Tyson chose not to fight or just avoided for some reason. He could have had a lot more interesting than oh Tyson vs: Orlin Norris, Julius Francis, Lou Savarese, Brian Nielsen.

After prison, after Holyfield, Mike Tyson never tried to be "the baddest man on the planet" in terms of boxing ability. He was a sideshow, an act, and though semi-successful at boxing while doing that he never really took on a true test other than Ruddock, Holyfield, and Lewis after losing to Douglas.

[ross]

BS.... Tyson for Holmes's left overs to a large degree, but Holmes's leftovers weren't slouches. Many of them went on to hold titles or be seriously dangerous contenders.

Tyson also had really tough guys that went on to long careers- wasn't until Bowe and Holyfield came along, most notably Bowe, who separated what a real HW champion should be and be dominant at it.

Bowe should have never fought Holyfield the second time around, now looking back at it.

Guys BOTH Holmes and Tyson fought: Holyfield, Michael Spinks, Carl Williams, James 'Bonecrusher' Smith, Marvis Frazier, and Trevor Berbick. That's it and to be honest Holmes did better vs Holyfield and better vs Smith which can't be argued.

Tyson did NOT fight other guys that gave Holmes a hard time: Snipes, Witherspoon, Shavers, Norton either because they retired, drugs ruined their careers, or they never recaptured their form which earned them the shots vs Holmes but the point is Mike Tyson didn't have a great era of difficult fighters and when real fighters entered his division they took over.

Bowe's career peaked and plummeted while Tyson was in prison now had Tyson actually fought him what would have happened? We can speculate but the fight never happened. Look at the records of Holyfield and Lewis and see the names they fought which Tyson chose not to fight or just avoided for some reason. He could have had a lot more interesting than oh Tyson vs: Orlin Norris, Julius Francis, Lou Savarese, Brian Nielsen.

After prison, after Holyfield, Mike Tyson never tried to be "the baddest man on the planet" in terms of boxing ability. He was a sideshow, an act, and though semi-successful at boxing while doing that he never really took on a true test other than Ruddock, Holyfield, and Lewis after losing to Douglas.

You mean other than obliterating Spinks?

Forgot about him didnt you



Its painful to read Tyson bashing when putting comparisons out there. When would lewis have been to much for a prime Tyson? When he struggled against Mercer who Holmes best comfortably? Got knocked out by Mikes sparring partner? Got knocked out by Rahman?

This is the thing, both Holyfield and Lewis never had a long consistent dominant period where they didn't have some kind of problem with some kind of opponent that a fighter as quick and dangerous as that Mike Tyson wouldn't have been able to capitalise on. The man that beat Holmes twice couldn't even get out of the first round with Mike. An older Holmes beat Mercer, pushed Holyfield and was robbed against McCall but he couldn't get to the half way point with that Mike.

[mikeeod]

Holmes didn't push him to a decision, he used every bit of heart, guile and trick at his disposal to SURVIVE to the decision. There is a difference. Regardless, the bottom line is that when Tyson was favored to beat Evander he was broken mentally and knocked out. Any excuse or abstract thought process you want to use is meaningless. Also, the majority of the boxing public agrees that Tyson feasted in inferior competition, and that Holmes, Lewis, Evander were all superior fighters during their prime years. U r definitively a HUGE Tyson fan, which is a good things as I think Mike is a good guy for the most part. We will just agree to disagree I guess...

[ross]

Holmes didn't push him to a decision, he used every bit of heart, guile and trick at his disposal to SURVIVE to the decision. There is a difference. Regardless, the bottom line is that when Tyson was favored to beat Evander he was broken mentally and knocked out. Any excuse or abstract thought process you want to use is meaningless. Also, the majority of the boxing public agrees that Tyson feasted in inferior competition, and that Holmes, Lewis, Evander were all superior fighters during their prime years. U r definitively a HUGE Tyson fan, which is a good things as I think Mike is a good guy for the most part. We will just agree to disagree I guess...

No. What you are doing is refusing to accept that some of the same fighters Mike beat with ease in his actual prime gave the fighters you want to think that are better than Mike a harder fight years later. Thats ignorance.

Mike fought. Holyfield 10 years after winning the title and 4 years enforced absence. He was not the same fighter that even beat Alex Stewart in a round. The same Alex Stewart that was robbed against Foreman and took Holyfield, Moorer and Maskaev rounds.

[mikeeod]

Holmes didn't push him to a decision, he used every bit of heart, guile and trick at his disposal to SURVIVE to the decision. There is a difference. Regardless, the bottom line is that when Tyson was favored to beat Evander he was broken mentally and knocked out. Any excuse or abstract thought process you want to use is meaningless. Also, the majority of the boxing public agrees that Tyson feasted in inferior competition, and that Holmes, Lewis, Evander were all superior fighters during their prime years. U r definitively a HUGE Tyson fan, which is a good things as I think Mike is a good guy for the most part. We will just agree to disagree I guess...

No. What you are doing is refusing to accept that some of the same fighters Mike beat with ease in his actual prime gave the fighters you want to think that are better than Mike a harder fight years later. Thats ignorance.

Mike fought. Holyfield 10 years after winning the title and 4 years enforced absence. He was not the same fighter that even beat Alex Stewart in a round. The same Alex Stewart that was robbed against Foreman and took Holyfield, Moorer and Maskaev rounds.

Alright, I see what u r saying now. Not their head to head match up, that was meaningless. We need to compare how each did vs similar opposition and u feel that Tyson won more impressively against Holmes and Stewart. You mentioned Stewart specifically as proof, so we can assume that u feel that Tyson was prime. Well, Evander destroyed the prime Douglas who dominated the undefeated and prime Tyson. Lewis and Evander both performed better vs each other than Tyson ever did. He didn't last the distance with either. Hopefully putting it like that helps u.

[Master]

Holmes didn't push him to a decision, he used every bit of heart, guile and trick at his disposal to SURVIVE to the decision. There is a difference. Regardless, the bottom line is that when Tyson was favored to beat Evander he was broken mentally and knocked out. Any excuse or abstract thought process you want to use is meaningless. Also, the majority of the boxing public agrees that Tyson feasted in inferior competition, and that Holmes, Lewis, Evander were all superior fighters during their prime years. U r definitively a HUGE Tyson fan, which is a good things as I think Mike is a good guy for the most part. We will just agree to disagree I guess...

What majority of boxing public?

[mikeeod]

Holmes didn't push him to a decision, he used every bit of heart, guile and trick at his disposal to SURVIVE to the decision. There is a difference. Regardless, the bottom line is that when Tyson was favored to beat Evander he was broken mentally and knocked out. Any excuse or abstract thought process you want to use is meaningless. Also, the majority of the boxing public agrees that Tyson feasted in inferior competition, and that Holmes, Lewis, Evander were all superior fighters during their prime years. U r definitively a HUGE Tyson fan, which is a good things as I think Mike is a good guy for the most part. We will just agree to disagree I guess...

What majority of boxing public?

Um, the majority of knowledgeable individuals who follow the sport. I have seen numerous historical rankings of fighters, and I can't remember any that have Tyson ahead of Evander. Have u seen many that rank Mike higher?!?

[ross]

The young, dedicated and focused 80s Tyson is a completely different proposition.

You mean the Tyson that was fighting such dangerous foes as Mike Jameson, David Jaco, Sammy Scaff, Marvis Frazier, and Steve Zouski?

Oh dear.

Hell, let's throw Tyson's amateur opponents in there as well shall we? How far back in time are going? What about before he started boxing? He hadn't beaten anyone then!

I was (obviously) thinking of the Tyson who beat everyone he fought, including Holmes, Spinks, Biggs etc etc. But no, let's judge him on the guys he fought as an up and coming novice. That always how fighters are judged.

I mean that Ali guy was good, but who did he beat in his first ten fights? Overrated fraud!

Can you expound on the "etc., etc.," I challenge you or anyone else on this forum to name elite, HOF level fighters that Tyson beat. Look at the three you named: Holmes was past his best and fighting without a tune up, Spinks who was a great light heavy but undersized at heavy n had beaten 3 other guys at the weight, and BIGGS. Tyrell Biggs?!? Here's a clue: when you are standing up for a guy's quality of opposition and you have to include Tyrell Biggs as one of his top 3 wins, don't send that post. I like Mike Tyson and I think he gets treated unfairly regarding his personal life, but zit is just a known fact that Mike feasted on a pathetic division. He never beat a prime fighter on the level of Evander, Bowe, Lewis, Wlad...etc.

You could easily pick holes over who they beat.

Which elite HOF fighters did Lewis beat? He drew with Holyfield and then got gifted a decision in the rematch. Struggled with Mercer and was very lucky to get the decision. Holmes won clearly against mercer. The same Holmes that Tyson smashed 4 years earlier. He got knocked out by mikes sparring partner the same sparring partner that again, Holmes should have got a decision over. he got knocked out by Rahman

Holyfield... Bowe? Who did Bowe beat? He got pushed to 12 rounds by a fighter that Mike bounced off the canvas

Bowe... Holyfield and no one else. He got battered by golota who Tyson made quit! He got taken rounds and hurt by Herbie Hide He was gifted a decision against Tubbs another old Tyson opponent who Mike wiped the floor with.

Now tell me the best wins each of those has and how its any better than anything Mike could have done.

Wlads best win? He's up there for longevity but he has no HOF stand out wins either. That shouldnt detract from his career because there was no one else good enough to beat him. (Has plenty of KO losses during his "prime" though.) Same as Mike in the eighties. He was too good. He didn't get dropped, or wobbled or draw, or gifted decisions. There was no dispute over who the best was and he avoided no one in the top ten.

Holyfield: beat prime Bowe (undefeated), Tyson, Michael Moorer, Buster Douglas, Ray Mercer, Foreman (past prime), and drew (should've lost) and lost (should've won) against Lennox.
Lennox: beat Tua, Evander (past prime), Vitali, Tyson (past prime), Rahman, Grant, Mercer, Golota (destroyed past prime but prior to Tyson), Ruddock (post Tyson but more convincingly).
Bowe: Seldon, Prime Evander, Coetzer, Cooper, Gonzalez, Herbie Hide (how many knock downs again?!?), Larry Donald and Golota.
Tyson: Holmes, Spinks (prime ?), Tubbs, Mitch Green, Trevor Berbick, Marvis Frazier, Tony Tucker (prime), Greg Page, Golota, Seldon, Bruno, bone crusher smith, ferguson, tyrell Biggs, Carl Williams.

Looking at those names, in my opinion, Tyson had superior competition to Bowe (but Bowes win over Evander trumps any win for Tyson), but inferior to both Evander and Lennox. Tyson losing to Douglas is equally ugly to Evanders loss to Moorer and Lennox losing to Rahman n Oliver. Lewis and Evander both avenged those losses convincingly, and Tyson did not. I would also argue that Mike was back to form, a 15-1 favorite and Evander was not what he was during his prime when they fought. Evander took mike apart and anyone who says that would've gone differently at any point of either guys' career is kidding themselves or just delusional.

Mike Tyson was a victim of his own massive success in his post prison career.

He was out of boxing for 4 years and was declining before that. He was washed up. His name and reputation proceeded him and still carried weight.

Your trying to tell me the fighter who struggled with Cooper would have got passed the prime Tyson that beat Holmes? The same Holmes that gave a prime Holyfield a far more difficult fight than he could ever have hoped to give a prime Tyson?

Heres another view. The Holmes that took Holyfield 12 rounds. What would have happened in a fight between that Holmes and Tyson who lost to Holyfield?

It would have been a much different outcome right?

Thats because Mike Tyson was a much different fighter by then. Certainly not because after another 4 years that Holmes got any better.

Also, I can pick massive holes in your list of opponents that Holyfield faced. Mercer? He lost to Holmes that Tyson beat. Michael Moorer? The only decent name that Foreman could knockout, Foreman was even getting beaten up b A.ex Stewart who Tyson wiped his ass with.

Lennox over Tua? And? Who didn't beat Tua? Event Monte Fucking Barrett beat Tua! Grant? Again, who didnt?

Bowe? That list is a joke.

Pretty piss poor using actual opponents names because there are massive holes to be picked everywhere.

I think the point most try to make by naming all these "HOF" fighters that other champs faced is more to do with consistency but then even that is ridiculous because tell me, which one of Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis and Wlad have held all the main titles together for as ling as Tyson did? Thats real domination. Being THE only man in the division and being able to do that in just 3 years!

People forget in just three years that Mike beat Berbick, smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs, Spinks, Bruno and Williams. 3 were defending champions, another was the lineal champ, another was a hall of famer that went on to beat Mercer and extend Holyfield etc. Had he had the same slow schedule of Holyfield and Lewis in later years maybe people wouldn't be so dismissive?