Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition

[Beanflicker]

How bout that Marquez had to jump up two weight classes just for Floyd to not even attempt to make weight and just paid the fine. Floyd is not the same size of Marquez or Pac ( who are both small at 147). Dont be so quick to discredit Pacs win against Oscar cause he had to go down but praise Floyd for making Marquez move up two. Plus dont forget that Pac jumped up two weight classes to fight de la Hoya it was a big risk for him too.

Floyd not making weight was unprofessional for sure. He only missed it by two pounds but still unprofessional.

But Marquez also jumped 2 divisions to fight Pac at 147 too, and beat his ass twice, so how is it different? The JMM who fought Floyd at WW was the exact same size as the JMM who fought Pac at WW (and was two years younger as well).

And Floyd is a small 147lber. On fight night he is consistently outweighed by 10-20lbs by his opponents.

[Rantcatrat]

How bout that Marquez had to jump up two weight classes just for Floyd to not even attempt to make weight and just paid the fine. Floyd is not the same size of Marquez or Pac ( who are both small at 147). Dont be so quick to discredit Pacs win against Oscar cause he had to go down but praise Floyd for making Marquez move up two. Plus dont forget that Pac jumped up two weight classes to fight de la Hoya it was a big risk for him too.

Floyd not making weight was unprofessional for sure. He only missed it by two pounds but still unprofessional.

But Marquez also jumped 2 divisions to fight Pac at 147 too, and beat his ass twice, so how is it different? The JMM who fought Floyd at WW was the exact same size as the JMM who fought Pac at WW (and was two years younger as well).

Timeline
In February 2009, JMM fought at 135 against Juan Diaz.

By 2009, Floyd had already fought as high as 154 and consistently had fought at 147 for a number of years.

In September 2009, Floyd fought JMM at a contracted weight of ten pounds heavier than JMM's last fight, at 145, and Floyd came in at 147 (by the way, not just unprofessional, also the small welterweight idea is put to rest or he would have come in at 145 if that were the case, as contracted- why pay $200,000 to come in 2 pounds higher if you're better at a lesser weight?), 12 pounds heavier than JMM's last fight. JMM jumped two weight classes to face Floyd.

In 2010, JMM went back down to lightweight to face Juan Diaz and Kastidis. 135.

In July 2011, he moves up in weight to face Likar Ramos at 140.

In November 2011, he moves up in weight again to face Pacquiao at 144 and comes in only 2 pounds heavier than his last fight. Barelly any fluctuation in weight between fights and it's been 1 year since he last fought at lightweight.

Therefore, he only moved up 4 pounds to face Pacquiao from his previous fight and fought him at almost the same weight he was in his fight before against Ramos. He also had one year to get comfortable fighting at 142 and had done it successfully against Ramos too.

For Floyd, he moved up 10 pounds from his fight before, and then faced Floyd at a 12 pounds difference.

After facing Pacquiao and losing in 2011, he fought a Russian at 140 and then went up only 2 pounds again to face Pacquiao for a fight at 147.

Bottom line: in the times he faced Pacquiao he didn't move around much in weight. His weight stayed stable, around the same before and after. When he faced Floyd he had moved up 10 pounds from his last fight and jumped two weight classes. Take that for whatever it is worth.

And the eye test, Marquez physically was a much different fighter when he faced Floyd than when he faced Manny. There's a meme out there that shows an entirely different physical appearance from Marquez 2009 and 2012. It's actually quite remarkable.

[mikeeod]

You are definitely being biased against Manny and not putting into context when the wins occurred. Manny's top wins:
JMM: Not the blown up lightweight that Floyd beat at 147, Manny fought the prime counter puncher at a weight that suited both. He fought him multiple times in JMM prime, while he was rated P4P. JMM is a HOFer easy.
Barrera: Coming off of a dominating win of Hamed and close win over Morales, he was P4P top 5 and a HUGE favorite to win. Pac destroyed him during his peak and at his best weight. HOFer.
Morales: P4P ranked when they fought the first time, Manny lost a close decision but came back to destroy him twice. Another HOF fighter Pac fought during his prime.
Cotto: One loss to Margo, a much bigger man and still viewed as in his prime and dangerous. This is a very underrated win, especially considering how Pac stopped him. HOFer.
Bradley: Ranked P4P #3 at the time and undefeated. Manny beat him twice (don't care what the judges said) during Bradley's prime.
Hatton: lesser version than the one Floyd beat, but one look at that fight n u can see it wouldn't have mattered. Manny destroys Hatton any time they fight like that.

JMM fought Floyd at WW, weighing 142, and got completely dominated. JMM fought Manny twice at WW, weighing 142 and 143, in which he was robbed in the first fight and knocked Manny spark out in the second.

People talk about how JMM was so small when he fought Floyd and then magically grew into a true WW when he fought Pac. No, he weighed the same when he fought Pac twice as he did when he fought Floyd. Explain to me the difference.

As far as Barrera goes, yup great win that I have absolutely no problem with. Cotto was always dangerous but what I said still stands: his stock had dropped considerably after getting destroyed by Margarito and then looking very mediocre vs Clottey. That's not my opinion, that's just a fact. Morales was a great win (but Morales also outboxed Manny in the first fight).

How bout that Marquez had to jump up two weight classes just for Floyd to not even attempt to make weight and just paid the fine. Floyd is not the same size of Marquez or Pac ( who are both small at 147). Dont be so quick to discredit Pacs win against Oscar cause he had to go down but praise Floyd for making Marquez move up two. Plus dont forget that Pac jumped up two weight classes to fight de la Hoya it was a big risk for him too.

Exactly. It's not even close. Floyd has fought good opposition and no one is saying that Floyd ducked everyone and fought all bums like the OP was suggesting, but Manny has taken on consistently better opposition and pushed himself more. History will favor pack more, even though he has more losses and wasn't the all around complete package that Floyd is.

[mikeeod]

You are definitely being biased against Manny and not putting into context when the wins occurred. Manny's top wins:
JMM: Not the blown up lightweight that Floyd beat at 147, Manny fought the prime counter puncher at a weight that suited both. He fought him multiple times in JMM prime, while he was rated P4P. JMM is a HOFer easy.
Barrera: Coming off of a dominating win of Hamed and close win over Morales, he was P4P top 5 and a HUGE favorite to win. Pac destroyed him during his peak and at his best weight. HOFer.
Morales: P4P ranked when they fought the first time, Manny lost a close decision but came back to destroy him twice. Another HOF fighter Pac fought during his prime.
Cotto: One loss to Margo, a much bigger man and still viewed as in his prime and dangerous. This is a very underrated win, especially considering how Pac stopped him. HOFer.
Bradley: Ranked P4P #3 at the time and undefeated. Manny beat him twice (don't care what the judges said) during Bradley's prime.
Hatton: lesser version than the one Floyd beat, but one look at that fight n u can see it wouldn't have mattered. Manny destroys Hatton any time they fight like that.

JMM fought Floyd at WW, weighing 142, and got completely dominated. JMM fought Manny twice at WW, weighing 142 and 143, in which he was robbed in the first fight and knocked Manny spark out in the second.

People talk about how JMM was so small when he fought Floyd and then magically grew into a true WW when he fought Pac. No, he weighed the same when he fought Pac twice as he did when he fought Floyd. Explain to me the difference.

As far as Barrera goes, yup great win that I have absolutely no problem with. Cotto was always dangerous but what I said still stands: his stock had dropped considerably after getting destroyed by Margarito and then looking very mediocre vs Clottey. That's not my opinion, that's just a fact. Morales was a great win (but Morales also outboxed Manny in the first fight).

JMM didn't magically grow into ww, he matured and put muscle on to grow into the weight. Watch his fight vs Floyd n then last fight vs Manny. Night n day difference in size and density. Add to the fact that Floyd didn't meet the contractual weight by a couple of pounds, n it was a couple of guys from two different weight classes fighting. I always have said the Manny is a smaller man than Floyd. Much smaller. Floyd is a big 140 pounder and Manny is a 135 pounder. He started as a flyweight, and even though he was young he is only like 5'5" or 5'6".

[Beanflicker]

JMM didn't magically grow into ww, he matured and put muscle on to grow into the weight. Watch his fight vs Floyd n then last fight vs Manny. Night n day difference in size and density. Add to the fact that Floyd didn't meet the contractual weight by a couple of pounds, n it was a couple of guys from two different weight classes fighting. I always have said the Manny is a smaller man than Floyd. Much smaller. Floyd is a big 140 pounder and Manny is a 135 pounder. He started as a flyweight, and even though he was young he is only like 5'5" or 5'6".

JMM physically matured... at 37? Come on, man. And like I said, the JMM who fought Floyd weighed in the exact same as the JMM who fought Pac two years later: 142lbs (143lbs for the 4th Pac fight), so I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of a "night and day" size difference.

[mikeeod]

JMM didn't magically grow into ww, he matured and put muscle on to grow into the weight. Watch his fight vs Floyd n then last fight vs Manny. Night n day difference in size and density. Add to the fact that Floyd didn't meet the contractual weight by a couple of pounds, n it was a couple of guys from two different weight classes fighting. I always have said the Manny is a smaller man than Floyd. Much smaller. Floyd is a big 140 pounder and Manny is a 135 pounder. He started as a flyweight, and even though he was young he is only like 5'5" or 5'6".

JMM physically matured... at 37? Come on, man. And like I said, the JMM who fought Floyd weighed in the exact same as the JMM who fought Pac two years later: 142lbs (143lbs for the 4th Pac fight), so I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of a "night and day" size difference.

Look at the density of his build in both fights. He was much larger in the Manny fight. Not even debatable. And yes, once u stop running and making a conscious effort to keep ur weight down, u can actually fill out and mature into a larger, more muscular person. Weight training and different training habits benefitted JMM carrying the extra weight.

[Rantcatrat]

Also, you can't have it both ways. Either Clottey is good and the Cotto win counts a lot or Clottey is bad and Cotto's win doesn't count for much. If he's good, it's impressive Manny shut him out. If he's bad, it shouldn't matter he was coming off a loss.

To me, I think styles make fights. Manny was so much faster than Clottey that Clottey couldn't afford to come out of his shell. Against Cotto, speed differential wasn't there and Clottey could fight more of his fight. It's a shame he wouldn't come out of his shell though to give it a shot.

Also, realize that when Manny faced Oscar, he was a -200 underdog. Most experts predicted Manny to lose that fight. Now when we look back Oscar seemed drained but at the time it was a risky fight to take. The risk factor at the time of the fight should probably be factored into how high it is ranked to an extent too.

[east end bob]

You are definitely being biased against Manny and not putting into context when the wins occurred. Manny's top wins:
JMM: Not the blown up lightweight that Floyd beat at 147, Manny fought the prime counter puncher at a weight that suited both. He fought him multiple times in JMM prime, while he was rated P4P. JMM is a HOFer easy.
Barrera: Coming off of a dominating win of Hamed and close win over Morales, he was P4P top 5 and a HUGE favorite to win. Pac destroyed him during his peak and at his best weight. HOFer.
Morales: P4P ranked when they fought the first time, Manny lost a close decision but came back to destroy him twice. Another HOF fighter Pac fought during his prime.
Cotto: One loss to Margo, a much bigger man and still viewed as in his prime and dangerous. This is a very underrated win, especially considering how Pac stopped him. HOFer.
Bradley: Ranked P4P #3 at the time and undefeated. Manny beat him twice (don't care what the judges said) during Bradley's prime.
Hatton: lesser version than the one Floyd beat, but one look at that fight n u can see it wouldn't have mattered. Manny destroys Hatton any time they fight like that.

JMM fought Floyd at WW, weighing 142, and got completely dominated. JMM fought Manny twice at WW, weighing 142 and 143, in which he was robbed in the first fight and knocked Manny spark out in the second.

People talk about how JMM was so small when he fought Floyd and then magically grew into a true WW when he fought Pac. No, he weighed the same when he fought Pac twice as he did when he fought Floyd. Explain to me the difference.

As far as Barrera goes, yup great win that I have absolutely no problem with. Cotto was always dangerous but what I said still stands: his stock had dropped considerably after getting destroyed by Margarito and then looking very mediocre vs Clottey. That's not my opinion, that's just a fact. Morales was a great win (but Morales also outboxed Manny in the first fight).

JMM didn't magically grow into ww, he matured and put muscle on to grow into the weight. Watch his fight vs Floyd n then last fight vs Manny. Night n day difference in size and density. Add to the fact that Floyd didn't meet the contractual weight by a couple of pounds, n it was a couple of guys from two different weight classes fighting. I always have said the Manny is a smaller man than Floyd. Much smaller. Floyd is a big 140 pounder and Manny is a 135 pounder. He started as a flyweight, and even though he was young he is only like 5'5" or 5'6".

This is a sensible view. Both are great fighters. Floyd's style for me is dull whereas Manny is exciting. I would stay up all night to watch Manny but not Floyd. Having said that, Floyd is bigger, much bigger, in boxing at the highest level that is a crucial factor. I know there are many examples that may be quoted to disprove this but the fact remains that "GOOD BIG'UN WILL BEAT A GOOD LITTL'UN! most times. Manny therefore has a problem But I would love him to prove me wrong.

[imp]

The perception seems to be that, when you're talking about the competition each guy has faced, Manny was a real man who fought nothing but the best and Floyd was the guy who meticulously cherry picked easily opponents. A lot of people still believe Pac was the better fighter because he fought much better opposition.

Can someone explain that to me?

DLH - a guy Floyd beat a year prior. Forced to drain himself down to a weigh class he hadn't fought at in 7 or 8 years prior to that fight.

Ricky Hatton - Great win but another Floyd leftover who's camp seemed to be in turmoil and had broke off with his long time trainer.

Cotto - great win, but came at a time when Cotto's stock had fallen greatly after being physically destroyed by Marg and was coming off a controversial split decision win over Clottey where he looked terrible.

Clottely - Tough fighter but actually coming off of the loss to Cotto.

Marg - newly off of his suspension after being absolutely destroyed by Mosley. Shane Mosley leftover

Shane Mosley - Floyd leftover coming off a dominating loss to Floyd and a draw where he looked like absolute shit against Sergio Mora of all people.

JMM - Great fighter, but obviously it has to be noted that JMM is a guy who gave Pac absolute fits and knocked him unconscious, whereas Floyd pitched a virtual shutout against him and made JMM look like an amateur (the only person to have done that)

Tim Bradley - nothing to complain about here. Manny fought the undefeated, crafty Bradley twice and won twice (despite what the judges said the first time). Great wins.

Brandon Rios - Blown up 135lber coming off a loss to Alvarado. Pointless fight.

Chris Algeri - Virtual unknown until a SD win over Provodnikov. Tall with long reach, but seemingly no power. I think most boxing fans are in agreement that this is a pretty uninteresting fight.



Am I being unfair to Manny? I'm not saying that these fights meant nothing because for the most part they were fought against very tough fighters. But once you get past the fact that Manny was fighting larger guys (something Floyd has done every time out), how come we don't scrutinize Manny's competition like we do Floyd's?

Superb

[Silkeyjoe]

The perception seems to be that, when you're talking about the competition each guy has faced, Manny was a real man who fought nothing but the best and Floyd was the guy who meticulously cherry picked easily opponents. A lot of people still believe Pac was the better fighter because he fought much better opposition.

Can someone explain that to me?

DLH - a guy Floyd beat a year prior. Forced to drain himself down to a weigh class he hadn't fought at in 7 or 8 years prior to that fight.

Ricky Hatton - Great win but another Floyd leftover who's camp seemed to be in turmoil and had broke off with his long time trainer.

Cotto - great win, but came at a time when Cotto's stock had fallen greatly after being physically destroyed by Marg and was coming off a controversial split decision win over Clottey where he looked terrible.

Clottely - Tough fighter but actually coming off of the loss to Cotto.

Marg - newly off of his suspension after being absolutely destroyed by Mosley. Shane Mosley leftover

Shane Mosley - Floyd leftover coming off a dominating loss to Floyd and a draw where he looked like absolute shit against Sergio Mora of all people.

JMM - Great fighter, but obviously it has to be noted that JMM is a guy who gave Pac absolute fits and knocked him unconscious, whereas Floyd pitched a virtual shutout against him and made JMM look like an amateur (the only person to have done that)

Tim Bradley - nothing to complain about here. Manny fought the undefeated, crafty Bradley twice and won twice (despite what the judges said the first time). Great wins.

Brandon Rios - Blown up 135lber coming off a loss to Alvarado. Pointless fight.

Chris Algeri - Virtual unknown until a SD win over Provodnikov. Tall with long reach, but seemingly no power. I think most boxing fans are in agreement that this is a pretty uninteresting fight.



Am I being unfair to Manny? I'm not saying that these fights meant nothing because for the most part they were fought against very tough fighters. But once you get past the fact that Manny was fighting larger guys (something Floyd has done every time out), how come we don't scrutinize Manny's competition like we do Floyd's?

I dont know who says Manny fights better. I believe they are on par with eachother with Pac fighting better fighters earlier in his career and Floyd fighting better. The reason Floyd gets stick about it because he claims to be the best ever. If he believes that he should fight the best. Noone thinks Pac is close to the best ever