Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier

[Master]

Why disrespect Ali you Muppet?

Ali had one of the best chins in history.

No one says Ali was a knockout artist either.

You make concessions and then insult the fighters further.

[Max Power]

Why disrespect Ali you Muppet?

Ali had one of the best chins in history.

No one says Ali was a knockout artist either.

You make concessions and then insult the fighters further.

On what grounds?

Being knocked by 185lb Cooper who had a bummy record?

Atleast when Wladimir got knocked down by a bum it was by a man mountain puncher and through exhaustion.

Muhammad Ali grew a lot stronger in his second career (his REAL prime) and DID have an iron chin in relation to his era.

But then again, the time he met a really hard puncher Foreman, he didn't really take any head shots because he was tortoise shelled on the ropes. Good on him for that, whatever works, he got the win.

But I don't think you can make a case for one of the hardest chins in "history" by taking shots from Frazier!

Imagine if we replaced Frazier's hooks with say, Tommy Morrison's?

Faster, sharper and about 3x harder? Really think his "chin" would have saved him then?

Chin is relative to the era, obviously. Claiming best in "history" can only include boxers up to that point in time. As it goes on there will be more and more boxers that both hit harder and take punches.

[Master]

Ali withstood the punches of the strongest fighters in history. Fact.

Wlad has a vulnerable chin. You can see that in him anytime a fighter gets in close. It is not smart it is scared and unnecessary. The Povetkin fight illustrated that clearly.

[Max Power]

Ali withstood the punches of the strongest fighters in history. Fact.

Wlad has a vulnerable chin. You can see that in him anytime a fighter gets in close. It is not smart it is scared and unnecessary. The Povetkin fight illustrated that clearly.

Any boxer would have a vulnerable chin against this crop of fighters. Have a look at the bloody guys he fights! They are the hardest punchers the world has ever seen. It is DEFINITELY smart. If he was scared, he wouldn't get in there with them. It is unnecessary if you want to score lots of early round KO's. It is DEFINITELY necessary if you want to barely get hit, win nearly every round of boxing you fight and go 10 years without a loss.

Ali withstood the strongest fighters in history did he? LOL Yeah right! Most of Ali's opponents were not even real HW's. Get real!

[Master]

Ali withstood the punches of the strongest fighters in history. Fact.

Wlad has a vulnerable chin. You can see that in him anytime a fighter gets in close. It is not smart it is scared and unnecessary. The Povetkin fight illustrated that clearly.

Any boxer would have a vulnerable chin against this crop of fighters. Have a look at the bloody guys he fights! They are the hardest punchers the world has ever seen. It is DEFINITELY smart. If he was scared, he wouldn't get in there with them. It is unnecessary if you want to score lots of early round KO's. It is DEFINITELY necessary if you want to barely get hit, win nearly every round of boxing you fight and go 10 years without a loss.

Ali withstood the strongest fighters in history did he? LOL Yeah right! Most of Ali's opponents were not even real HW's. Get real!

If they were not heavyweights what were they lightweights?

[Max Power]

Ali withstood the punches of the strongest fighters in history. Fact.

Wlad has a vulnerable chin. You can see that in him anytime a fighter gets in close. It is not smart it is scared and unnecessary. The Povetkin fight illustrated that clearly.

Any boxer would have a vulnerable chin against this crop of fighters. Have a look at the bloody guys he fights! They are the hardest punchers the world has ever seen. It is DEFINITELY smart. If he was scared, he wouldn't get in there with them. It is unnecessary if you want to score lots of early round KO's. It is DEFINITELY necessary if you want to barely get hit, win nearly every round of boxing you fight and go 10 years without a loss.

Ali withstood the strongest fighters in history did he? LOL Yeah right! Most of Ali's opponents were not even real HW's. Get real!

If they were not heavyweights what were they lightweights?

Follow me closely here, not just Master but all of the OTNB..

This is how we would describe Ali's opponents today very briefly...

Ali himself would be described as a former Cruiser and light HW.

Of Ali's opponents, 50%, HALF of them were CRUISERWEIGHTS or even light-HW's! And Wladmir would not even be ALLOWED to knock them out.

Of the remaining opponents, another HALF of them would be considered FORMER CW's (or former subs). Wladimir was never troubled by any such opponents and please note the BEST ones in this class he fought, (Chambers, Haye, Byrd) were several leagues better than any of the comparable oppnents of Ali's (and I would say even of Ali himself!)

OF the remaining QUARTER of Ali's opponnts, the natural HW's, who ALWAYS boxed over 200+, MOST of them were bums!



Now given all of this, Wladimir was OUTWEIGED as often as he outweighed.

And Ali OUTWEIGHED his opponents in 70%! of his fights (almost all of them in his 60's reign!)

So no, they were HW's by the THEN standard. They are NOT HW's by today's standard.

They were quality HW's by the THEN standard. Not quality HW's by TODAYS standard.



And how did they fare against their opposition? Despite Wladimir's opposition objectively being about 100x better than Ali's, everything considered, Ali STRUGGLD BADLY throughout his whole career, whilst Wladimir has delivered the most dominant display of boxing ever, barely ever losing a single round the whole time and knocking most of his oppoennts out!

I would say that's case closed!

The Clay/Ali era, was an unusually weak era beyond any doubt, even given the timeframe!

[Primo Carnera]

This is why you have to be careful comparing different eras. in Ali's era, the vast majority of HW's are smaller than today. nowadays ,they also have much more high tech training facilities , various supplements (even the legal ones) that benefit athletes of today. Fuck me, they should be better Today!
Even in other sports this is the case . for example, Athletics, World Records get beat and times go down all the time. Jesse Owens wouldn't make an Olympic final now, does that mean a guy who finishes last in the final is greater than Jesse Owens? that's Bullshit!
and when it comes to Ali, I have to take issue a bit . I would say he is about the same size (6 foot 2 or 3 , 210LBS.) as Haye. I would wager that most people believe Ali would beat Haye. and that is despite the fact that Ali's prime was 45 years ago, he didn't have access to the training facilities and techniques that Haye did and didn't have the benefit of nutrition and supplement advances that Haye has.
With all those disadvantages Ali had , the only boxer who I can think of who succeeded in similar circumstances was Rocky vs Drago!!!
there has to be a bit of licence for the era someone was born in, or it's pointless even talking about it.