Gene Tunney is not an all time great HW

[SlimTrae]

[QUOTE=greynotsoold;1288772]

There is a lot of stuff that Roach teaches that is not 'old', for example, turning over punches. he tends to the pick them up, turn them over then throw them school of thought.
And a great many skills are lost (Miller did not teach Roach, by the way. You must be thinking of Eddie Futch). A lot of this is because great trainers did not pass on their skills. A lot of it is because guys take the easy way out- I think that is just human nature. You can see this in the the footwork modern fighters use, the way they throw their punches, their defensive liabilities. For example- the essence of boxing is counterpunching. Today the emphasis is on keeping one's hands high is a position that makes it hard to punch back, but that is easier because of the larger gloves.
You see many fighters doing everything off the front foot- by that I mean, powering their left hand punches by pushing off and never getting the weight onto the rear foot- or with thier feet too far apart. These things affect your ability to move, to defend, to throw good combinations, to move after you punch. In the ring, with me wearing punch mitts and catching your punches, if your feet are like that, I can move you off your balance, keep you from moving. Yet it is taught that way.

QUOTE]

Can we agree that Mayweather has been the top defensive boxer of the last decade? the staple of his defense is rolling the right hand off his shoulder, is it not? In this day and age that is treated like it is some elusive art form that only the most gifted can pursue. Take some time and find some old boxing training manuals, back from when colleges in the US had boxing teams. Teaching the shoulder roll was standard- back in the day that was how it was taught. My dad boxed in the 1930s in Pittsburgh and that is how he taught me in the early 1970s.
What changed 30 years ago...Gloves got bigger, they attached the thumbs. Before that, you didn't use the ear-muffs defense because you still got hit. You had smaller gloves which covered less of you and he had smaller gloves to slip through the openings. So you slipped, you parried, you deflected; all of these things lead to counter punch opportunities. or, you stayed out of range unless you had a reason to get within punching distance. Also, with smaller gloves, you threw better punches. You paid attention to where they were going because hitting a guy on the elbow hurt your hands, so did hitting on top of his head, and you could break your thumb in a number of ways.

Great class. I think referee Mills Lanes was in the last group of boxers to graduate from collegiate boxing.

[Beanflicker]

I still don't think Gene Tunney is an ATG. How can you not fight black folk and be great?

[brocktonblockbust]

I still don't think Gene Tunney is an ATG. How can you not fight black folk and be great?

what about Puerto Ricans? must they be in there , too? Mulattos? Like Wilfredo Benitez? Or Brazilians? Indians? Dominicans? Or just black Dominicans count---in order to be an ATG?

[Max Power]

I still don't think Gene Tunney is an ATG. How can you not fight black folk and be great?

what about Puerto Ricans? must they be in there , too? Mulattos? Like Wilfredo Benitez? Or Brazilians? Indians? Dominicans? Or just black Dominicans count---in order to be an ATG?

Don't be stupid. We all know there were racist motivations for not fighting the blacks back in those days, either out of fear or embarrassment to losing to them and because it wouldn't have been a good "look" to have a black champion.

[Beanflicker]

I still don't think Gene Tunney is an ATG. How can you not fight black folk and be great?

what about Puerto Ricans? must they be in there , too? Mulattos? Like Wilfredo Benitez? Or Brazilians? Indians? Dominicans? Or just black Dominicans count---in order to be an ATG?

Yeah but Puerto Rican's don't make great HW's. Black American fighters are historically the best fighters because they have so much athleticism from African genes and so much rage because of slavery.

[Max Power]

I still don't think Gene Tunney is an ATG. How can you not fight black folk and be great?

what about Puerto Ricans? must they be in there , too? Mulattos? Like Wilfredo Benitez? Or Brazilians? Indians? Dominicans? Or just black Dominicans count---in order to be an ATG?

Yeah but Puerto Rican's don't make great HW's. Black American fighters are historically the best fighters because they have so much athleticism from African genes and so much rage because of slavery.

I don't think there's anything particularly special about black fighters racially when viewed globally. Maybe in America. I think it has been a cultural thing for black people to want to fight and hence box moreso than whites historically (atleast in America).

You have to look to the fact that the moment boxing went global, all black boxers were basically eliminated from champ status, especially from the heavier division where they were supposedly most dominant.

But you are right for the point of this discussion, historically for whatever reason, the blacks were the best boxers in the world.

And given the times/situation.. One thing is fully obvious, but seems to require being pointed out...

IF COLOURED FIGHTERS WERE MANDATORY FOR ALL THE PRE-30'S BOXERS TO FACE, GUYS LIKE DEMPSEY AND TUNNEY WOULD PROBABLY HAVE NEVER BEEN HW CHAMPIONS AT ALL! That is a fact!