Larry Holmes: Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stiverne

[Ron Swanson]

Cooney 6'5 25-0 23 ko's Walking through Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young- he was a massive specimen with a power punch & a chin. Yet Holmes proved his skill level could nullify, height, jab & power. -& when Cooney hurt him to the body, will power pulled him out- thats what he questions about Wlad--even stating Wlad is good technically, but theres more to boxing than skill.

Holmes proved at the time a 6'5 boxer which was massive, could be whooped....

Gerry Cooney was tough but wins over old Ron Lyle and old Ken Norton and old Jimmy Young did not mean he was ready for Larry Holmes. Cooney was 25-0-0 but he had never been tested by a guy in his prime at the time, he didn't fight Marvis Frazier or Carl Williams, or Renaldo Snipes or Tim Witherspoon...are you kidding me?

He should've fought Marvis Frazier before Holmes? I thought Cooney fought Holmes in 1982.
In 1982 wasn't Frazier about 6-0 with no fights in 1982. Carl Williams debuted in 1982. And you ask me am I kidding?
Holmes stopped Marvis in (1) before Tyson did & Holmes was never-ever known for shit like that.
You think a 6'5 KO fighter would be compromised by a 6'0- barely 210lbs Marvis w/76inch reach + a 38%KO ratio 21 fights in 8 years?
Snipes would've been a good fight, but we're playing semantics here; Who he didn't fight can't determine what he would've done or not. He never fought a Snipes & Snipes never fought a 6'5 power puncher. What you've written at this point comes across as totally subjective; its your opinion. Cool, but don't call it facts he wasn't ready. The point I made which you negated was: at that time... he had 25 fights over five years in....And we hadn't seen a man that size dominate.
Spinks was the only other guy to beat him. And Forman was when he came back...
He didn't fight Witherspoon. OK, but how did he become litmus test of whose ready?

Sure he could punch but his boxing never got tested the deepest he went into a fight before Holmes was 8 rounds...8!!! And he lasted 13 with Holmes, why so long? Couldn't Larry have ended it sooner Why, was he supposed to have ended it sooner? What is your point? First you say Coony didn't have boxing skills, then here you claim this non-tested boxer went 13 rounds with Holmes. Sounds like a diss' on Holmes just to debate Slim. OK, then by your admission Holmes was barely good enough to beat a non-tested boxer. Not me. I think he went 13 rounds, because I said- the kid had a chin. Did you read that? And he had will. Just like Puritty had will-will that Wlad couldn't wilt.



Purrity, for fucks sake Wlad was 22 when that fight happened. He was young,
Cassius was 22, Tyson was younger than that. You actually injected his age as a reason to him losing? Think about it...how does a 22 year kid run out of stamina before a 32 year old who had gotten his ass whizzipped about a dozen times b4?

he was beating the fuck out of Ross and just got tired,
Yeah, I know, I said it here: Wlad is throwing nicely, bustin' through Puritty's guard--see- U do one side Wlad's & that's it. I gave my opinion ALSO on Purity-- what was going through his mind? Why didn't he wilt to all that punishment like so many others? I speculate: WILL Power. You didn't bother.
That is what Holmes is talking about and a few others here who agree with him. Wlad for the umpteenth time- has defeated every type of skilled fighter. Inside, outside. But he has yet to find a dog fight like he did when he was young...and survive.



it happens ESPECIALLY to young fighters
(IMO-Not to ALL time Greats)...they fight through the fatigue. Even fat ass James Toney for example fights through fatigue...that's why Wlad is great for his era, but not necessarily an ATG.



and the fact that Wlad could go back to that fight, look at it objectively, and then correct the mistakes THAT is the sign of a true champion!
Yes it is, no complaints from me.

Ross Purrity's manager really dodged a bullet with his fighter's health allowing that fight to continue, but that's how it works sometimes. I disagree. he held a high guard and didn't really get busted up. Or did he? I dunno. Did he get beatan like Shannon Briggs? Like Lewis on Tyson? I never saw Purity look too shook. So the only luck they had..was getting the fight. Purity's WILL power did the rest.

Sanders was a power punching southpaw....imagine if Earnie Shavers was a southpaw, would Ali have fought him? Ali fought everybody, really poor comparison there.
Would Holmes have fought him?
The fact that he was a southpaw- powerpuncher means what? Every fighter has something to bring to the table--and a ATG neutralizes it.. Maybe your definition of an ATG is different than mines NP.

Sanders didn't help himself by training more on the golf course than he did in the ring, but what a talent. He threw short, quick, precise punches from a southpaw stance and they packed a wallop....Wlad wasn't out cold, Wlad didn't get counted out with his back on the canvas, he got caught, couldn't recover and that's that. He went back, took note of the mistakes he made and hasn't made them sense....
Of course..how can he? Since then he has fought guys just as talented & in some cases stronger & skilled...but to my knowledge Wlad hasn't fought a person willing to take it to the dog house.

that learning process, that ability to cover his flaws, that makes him a great fighter.
Yes he is.
Since that loss Wladimir has fought a number of southpaws and none have given him trouble...none are the puncher Corrie was (r.i.p) but none have given Wlad trouble.
Here again we disagree. You think it's about southpaw, I think he was a crude south paw who stood up, squared his shoulder, lousy stance...but his demeanor was nasssttyy!! That's why he won IMO.

Mike Tyson did PLENTY of clinching, Ali did PLENTY of clinching....can people not accept that Wladimir is the best heavyweight in the world? It's not by a small margin either he just absolutely tooled the best the division had to offer in Pulev, he just smacked the life out of the guy and with his 3rd best punch too!

I'm a HOP fan , so clinching is not what I'm talking about- you've either evaded it, or I just failed to get my point across (to you): Hop, Ali &even Lennox clinched to set traps- Especially Hop, he holds with one hand and hits with the other...With Wlad? I end the way I started it: When he clinches it is usually an ass-out clinch. No effective clinch w/one hand & bopping with the other. When he is in a dog fight...He won't throw he clinches. That's not the sign of an ATG its the sign of someone trying to survive. But that's just my take.

Sorry, but that is BS. If you need proof go watch Ali/Spinks II again. That fight was a complete shitshow. I counted the clinches initiated by Ali years ago because I was so disgusted by that fight. Only counting clinches where the ref was forced to break. And only counting where no legal punches were thrown. I say legal because Ali threw as many rabbit punches in his fights as any fighter in history. If I remember correctly it averaged 16 clinches initiated by Ali that the ref was forced to separate per round. Do you realize how much clinching that is? That is jab, right, hold until the ref separates. Jab, right, hold until the ref separates, repeat until the fight is over. Only varying to throw the occasional illegal punch.

I like Ali a hell of a lot more than Wladimir. But the absurd double standards this guy faces force me to speak up for him. Wladimir has fought top guy after top guy for over a decade. Just give the man his props. Don't qualify his props. Don't throw backhanded compliments out there only so you can get a dig in after.

The dude has some flaws, guess what, so did the greatest. It can be argued Ali never beat Norton. And he lost to Frazier, and Spinks, and he struggled against some pretty crappy fighters. And... It doesn't matter! We don't throw it out there constantly because it doesn't matter. He's the greatest because of what he did. That's what matters, what you do. And Wladimir has made his adjustments and ruled for over a decade, that's what Wladimir did!

Is he the most exciting, no. But he's an amazing physical specimen with shocking speed for his size, ridiculous power, amazing coordination, he's smart and he has heart. His heart has been demonstrated repeatedly. I can show multiple occasions where the badass Mike Tyson decided he didn't want any more. There are no examples where Wladimir chose to stay down. Boxing fans seem to have warped opinions about everything. If you talk like a badass you are a badass, no. I can name 20 "badasses" off the top of my head that chose to stay down. And I can name 20 "soft" fighters that never in their careers chose to stay down. I can name many many guys with "legendary beards" who were KOed and many guys with "questionable beards" who were never KOed. There is so much opinion in these damn talks, sometimes you just have to say

That guy made a style that has ruled the sport for over a decade, he's a f'n badass.(I say sometimes very loosely because in all of history it's only happened twice, those guys must be a couple badasses)

[Max Power]

Wow, Kabong is really ripping grandpa @Master a new one today.

Rarely seen such ownage!

[Master]

Wow, Kabong is really ripping grandpa @Master a new one today.

Rarely seen such ownage!

That is what you call ownage? You are seriously deluded my friend.

Slim just responded to his post and it is good healthy debate. See what you want to see but the truth is the truth.

[SlimTrae]

Holmes proved at the time a 6'5 boxer which was massive, could be whooped....

Sanders was a power punching southpaw.... The fact that he was a southpaw- powerpuncher means what? Every fighter has something to bring to the table--and a ATG neutralizes it.. Maybe your definition of an ATG is different than mines NP.

!

.

Sorry, but that is BS. If you need proof go watch Ali/Spinks II again.
You bypassed the whole conversation to an example in the last paragraph? That is B.S.
Take my conversation out of context...and I will put it back in context.
Kabong & I disagreeing on Cooney's ability to fight Holmes-as a measurement to small guys who have beatan the BIG guy, yet in agreement that he was a hard puncher. Looking at his competition & determining if he had fought the best opposition to prepare him for Holmes.
WHat you're doing is like telling someone a movie aint good because you took issue with the last 5 minutes...in this case, my last paragraph. Thats a looongg way to go to find fault, dude.

That fight was a complete shitshow.
So.
What does one fight have to do with the topic? You took an example- at the ass-end of the discussion and want me to debate the legitmacy of a single fight that has what to deal with Holmes assertion that Wlad hasn't had a defining fight?

I counted the clinches initiated by Ali years ago because I was so disgusted by that fight.
Once again this is a thread about Holmes and look at how far you go to make a point. So, I will go there with you. I have no problems asserting that a post-Ali clinched-over the top. I also have no problem knowing you are talking post 1970's lay on the rope like a dope Ali. MY many threads here show that I count 1960-1967 Clay/Ali as a totally different fighter than post 1970's Ali.

Only counting clinches where the ref was forced to break. And only counting where no legal punches were thrown. I say legal because Ali threw as many rabbit punches in his fights as any fighter in history. If I remember correctly it averaged 16 clinches initiated by Ali that the ref was forced to separate per round. Do you realize how much clinching that is?

Not really. Because the amount of clinching in that one fight has never cause me to remember it.
Far too many fights where clinches are initiated for me to single one out & inject it into this thread, but ..be my guest U have the honors to that one.

That is jab, right, hold until the ref separates. Jab, right, hold until the ref separates, repeat until the fight is over. Only varying to throw the occasional illegal punch.

I like Ali a hell of a lot more than Wladimir. But the absurd double standards this guy faces force me to speak up for him.
Well, speak up to those who disrepect Wlad's skills. I don't.
So you are way off point addressing that to me, when I have Wlad as a great HW. Just because I dont see the shit eye to eye with you or Kabong, doesnt mean I give doublestandards.

I got one damn critique for him..and I cant have ONE? I got issues with virtually every fighter alive, because no one has been perfect & done it perfect each fight. You don't like me saying he hasnt had a defining fight..and giving my reason why, it's ok- just get over it.

Wladimir has fought top guy after top guy for over a decade.
WHen did I say he hasnt? I clearly wrote he has beatan every style, then I said inside and outside fighters.

Just give the man his props. Don't qualify his props. Don't throw backhanded compliments out there only so you can get a dig in after.
Utter-nutter-bullsshevik. I broke down how he got his ass whooped by 2 guy and I broke down how he has solidified himself since then..so you are quoting yourself..Not me.

Dont tell me to give props to a man I give props to.
I dont ride their nutsack till I can't find something wrong even in the ones I call ATG... . But let the record speak- You took a last paragraph to claim I dont give him his props. Yet I havent been quoted.

The dude has some flaws, guess what, so did the greatest.
I know he does. I pointed them out. Thats a part of a great fighter, they refine themselves.

It can be argued Ali never beat Norton.
Again, not relative to what I mentioned
And he lost to Frazier, and Spinks, and he struggled against some pretty crappy fighters. And... It doesn't matter! We don't throw it out there constantly because it doesn't matter. He's the greatest because of what he did. That's what matters, what you do.
You're preaching to the choir.

And Wladimir has made his adjustments and ruled for over a decade, that's what Wladimir did!
You are on a roll Ron-Money...Reading your post it sounds like I called Wlad a no-skilled talentless bum who never made any adjustments to be what I called him..HERE...A great of his era.

Is he the most exciting, no.
Serious Ron, I may be wrong here, but I am guessing I have never been one on this site to say his style his boring. I can search me, or U can. But you have to back this stuff up-not make it up. I find beauty in the way that big man dominates his foes. I just dont think he has had a foe with heart since a 1/2 skilled- 12 loss Puritty or Sanders. 9 outta 10 I end it with IMO...So IMO those (2) guys fought like dogs from hell. --he woulda loss no matter--shit happens, fighters lose even great ones. I don't mention his loss to Brewster...Notice that? Or ignoring it?
Reason is because that fight was a fluke IMO. Brewster got lucky...shit happens, but with Sanders & Puritty fight one..that was WILL power, something no one speaks of on this site, but me. SInce then, Wlad beats the confidence outta everyone else-to his credit..

But he's an amazing physical specimen with shocking speed for his size, ridiculous power, amazing coordination, he's smart and he has heart. You think he's had a defining fight to show his heart, cool, I don't.

His heart has been demonstrated repeatedly. I can show multiple occasions where the badass Mike Tyson decided he didn't want any more.
Master gets on my case for bringin up Tyson never stood up to those who didn't get bullied, once again you're preaching to the choir.

There are no examples where Wladimir chose to stay down.
Did I say that he did? Please dont say implied, quote it or let it be.

Boxing fans seem to have warped opinions about everything.
Does that include you, or are you better than us...boxing fans?
If you talk like a badass you are a badass, no. I can name 20 "badasses" off the top of my head that chose to stay down.
I can too.
And I can name 20 "soft" fighters that never in their careers chose to stay down. I can name many many guys with "legendary beards" who were KOed and many guys with "questionable beards" who were never KOed. There is so much opinion in these damn talks, sometimes you just have to say
I think Ron my man....thats the purpose of these boards. To discuss, debate and uh,oh Disagree?

That guy made a style that has ruled the sport for over a decade, he's a f'n badass.(I say sometimes very loosely because in all of history it's only happened twice, those guys must be a couple badasses)

Ron, my boxing bro..
U Took one word- clinching..and you turned it into something..that i honestly had to go back re-read what Kabong & I wrote...IMO that is how far off base you took this thread.
Then you summarized how great Wlad's skills are..as If I hadn't. You spoke not one time of the fighters Kabong mentioned in relevance to Holmes fight with a 6'5 powered big man. I addressed each fighter he mentioned. EACH ONE-
last
Here is something Kabong stated- THAT is the sign of a true champion!
Here is what I answered it with: Yes it is, no complaints from me.

[brocktonblockbust]

This thread must not turn into a "3-Cent happy Birthday bash for Floyd "Hemmhoroid" Mayweather"
bwaaaahahahaha

SAM_4552.jpg

[holmcall]

Holmes, please STFU!

[TitoFan]

This isn't just another Wlad vs. the world thread. We've got plenty of those.

This is about a former champion being his usual pathetic, bitter, whiny, thinly-veiled-racist self.
Like I said, I'm no Wlad fan... but I can give credit where credit is due. Wlad's does have a jab, and can use it effectively when he chooses to. So I disagree with the whining bitch there. Another disagreement is Stiverne beating Wlad. Never have I thought that, and now even less than ever... after Stiverne's less than memorable showing against Wilder. Wlad feeds off of stationary targets, who are there to be hit. Wlad would have to take very few chances against the likes of Stiverne, who would not exhibit nearly enough offense, just like he failed to do against Wilder. As for Wilder... I'd like for him to have 2-3 more fights at the upper division levels, getting in a few more rounds of championship experience, before pitting him against Wlad.

About the heart..... it's tough to accuse Wlad of having no heart, because frankly no fighter has ever challenged Wlad enough to make him show his heart or lack thereof. Having no heart, IMO, is different from the fear of having his brittle chin grazed, which I believe Wlad DOES have. So until a challenger actually gets up there and truly puts Wlad to the test, without cowering in fear waiting for the hammer to fall, or pawing at the air for 12 rounds, I'll reserve my judgment about Wlad's heart.

[SlimTrae]

This isn't just another Wlad vs. the world thread. We've got plenty of those.

This is about a former champion being his usual pathetic, bitter, whiny, thinly-veiled-racist self.
Like I said, I'm no Wlad fan... but I can give credit where credit is due. Wlad's does have a jab, and can use it effectively when he chooses to. So I disagree with the whining bitch there. Another disagreement is Stiverne beating Wlad. Never have I thought that, and now even less than ever... after Stiverne's less than memorable showing against Wilder. Wlad feeds off of stationary targets, who are there to be hit. Wlad would have to take very few chances against the likes of Stiverne, who would not exhibit nearly enough offense, just like he failed to do against Wilder. As for Wilder... I'd like for him to have 2-3 more fights at the upper division levels, getting in a few more rounds of championship experience, before pitting him against Wlad.

About the heart..... it's tough to accuse Wlad of having no heart, because frankly no fighter has ever challenged Wlad enough to make him show his heart or lack thereof. Having no heart, IMO, is different from the fear of having his brittle chin grazed, which I believe Wlad DOES have. So until a challenger actually gets up there and truly puts Wlad to the test, without cowering in fear waiting for the hammer to fall, or pawing at the air for 12 rounds, I'll reserve my judgment about Wlad's heart.

On point. I agree, Wlad's jab is a weapon in itself. So Yeah Holmes is being a bit..uh, Holmes!

[Master]

Holmes had a better jab.

[holmcall]

This isn't just another Wlad vs. the world thread. We've got plenty of those.

This is about a former champion being his usual pathetic, bitter, whiny, thinly-veiled-racist self.
Like I said, I'm no Wlad fan... but I can give credit where credit is due. Wlad's does have a jab, and can use it effectively when he chooses to. So I disagree with the whining bitch there. Another disagreement is Stiverne beating Wlad. Never have I thought that, and now even less than ever... after Stiverne's less than memorable showing against Wilder. Wlad feeds off of stationary targets, who are there to be hit. Wlad would have to take very few chances against the likes of Stiverne, who would not exhibit nearly enough offense, just like he failed to do against Wilder. As for Wilder... I'd like for him to have 2-3 more fights at the upper division levels, getting in a few more rounds of championship experience, before pitting him against Wlad.

About the heart..... it's tough to accuse Wlad of having no heart, because frankly no fighter has ever challenged Wlad enough to make him show his heart or lack thereof. Having no heart, IMO, is different from the fear of having his brittle chin grazed, which I believe Wlad DOES have. So until a challenger actually gets up there and truly puts Wlad to the test, without cowering in fear waiting for the hammer to fall, or pawing at the air for 12 rounds, I'll reserve my judgment about Wlad's heart.

He whines more than JMM. And he has nothing to whine about. What an A-hole,

[El Kabong]

Larry does his share of whining but he is pretty much the forgotten man with Ali coming before him and Tyson coming after him....he isn't viewed in a vacuum, he's always seen as the valley between those two champions when he was an All-Time Great and really dominated his era (not necessarily a strong era, but still credit where credit is due).

I think Larry Holmes was the first champion of the modern era people didn't appreciate fully much like how Lennox and oddly enough even Wlad have been treated. So it IS kind of shitty for him to bitch about Wlad in that regard.