Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and his "Lock" System

[greynotsoold]

I've been watching a lot of Duran lately and he seemed to follow a lot of pathways on this flowchart, especially as he liked to catch jabs a hell of a lot.

It's funny as there is no 'set play' for defending jab-hook combinations, or hooking of the jab (or off a feinted jab etc).

Both got nailed by similar shots (De Jesus/ Patterson).

If you watch Duran in the rubber match against De Jesus, count the number of jab-hook-cross combinations he throws. Obviously learned something over the years.

It's a good system to work from in parts but not exclusively (flaws noted above). It doesn't account hooks being thrown from further outside as more fighters could manage to do over the years, as athleticism increased.

There is a real simple method for defending against jab/hook combinations. You catch the jab- don't reach out for it, keep your right hand right in front of your chin. To block the hook, pick your right glove up and shift your weight onto your left foot and turn slightly over that foot. This enables you to roll a bit inside the hook rather than having it hit you square when you block it. Also, it puts you in position to come back with your own left hook. Finally, the motion of turning over the left leg is the same as it is for throwing a right hand; a right uppercut is a nifty counter to a hook to the body and you can drop a straight right inside a wide hook, especially one thrown from outside.
Archie probably didn't account for 'long range hooks' because, in his day, they were thrown mostly by rank amateurs. Indeed, going back to the earliest days of the gloved era, when long range hooks were called swings, they have been viewed with disdain. But, to many in boxing, disdain is nothing to get you down, so that is not why swings fell into disfavor. It was because when you swing, you don't really know which part of your hand is going to hit the opponent so swinging caused hand problems. Modern gloves, not athleticism, have made them favorable again.
Not to mention that boxing is in such dark days, skill-wise, that it is seen as entirely likely that one will fight guys- regularly- that are so defensively inept, that you can leap in and potshot them, like in a movie.

[Andre]

I've been watching a lot of Duran lately and he seemed to follow a lot of pathways on this flowchart, especially as he liked to catch jabs a hell of a lot.

It's funny as there is no 'set play' for defending jab-hook combinations, or hooking of the jab (or off a feinted jab etc).

Both got nailed by similar shots (De Jesus/ Patterson).

If you watch Duran in the rubber match against De Jesus, count the number of jab-hook-cross combinations he throws. Obviously learned something over the years.

It's a good system to work from in parts but not exclusively (flaws noted above). It doesn't account hooks being thrown from further outside as more fighters could manage to do over the years, as athleticism increased.

There is a real simple method for defending against jab/hook combinations. You catch the jab- don't reach out for it, keep your right hand right in front of your chin. To block the hook, pick your right glove up and shift your weight onto your left foot and turn slightly over that foot. This enables you to roll a bit inside the hook rather than having it hit you square when you block it. Also, it puts you in position to come back with your own left hook. Finally, the motion of turning over the left leg is the same as it is for throwing a right hand; a right uppercut is a nifty counter to a hook to the body and you can drop a straight right inside a wide hook, especially one thrown from outside.
Archie probably didn't account for 'long range hooks' because, in his day, they were thrown mostly by rank amateurs. Indeed, going back to the earliest days of the gloved era, when long range hooks were called swings, they have been viewed with disdain. But, to many in boxing, disdain is nothing to get you down, so that is not why swings fell into disfavor. It was because when you swing, you don't really know which part of your hand is going to hit the opponent so swinging caused hand problems. Modern gloves, not athleticism, have made them favorable again.
Not to mention that boxing is in such dark days, skill-wise, that it is seen as entirely likely that one will fight guys- regularly- that are so defensively inept, that you can leap in and potshot them, like in a movie.

Top post.

Excuse me diverging but talking about swings and hooks.

I've always thought it weird seeing fighters not swing a shot through the path of an opponents head who is playing around or has the habit of going side to side. Follow the path of the target and it will get it even on the way back, move in with a tight hook or step out to the side and swing one through the path.

How many times do you see people fix a stance and take straight pot shots at a head that is simply moving side to side in front of them? I recon 99% of the time.

I remember Roy would even put his hands near his knees and do it! Could never get over how he knew how dumb or frustrated his opponents were at that stage to get away with that shit.

Like you say mate dark days skill wise.

[Andre]

I've been watching a lot of Duran lately and he seemed to follow a lot of pathways on this flowchart, especially as he liked to catch jabs a hell of a lot.

It's funny as there is no 'set play' for defending jab-hook combinations, or hooking of the jab (or off a feinted jab etc).

Both got nailed by similar shots (De Jesus/ Patterson).

If you watch Duran in the rubber match against De Jesus, count the number of jab-hook-cross combinations he throws. Obviously learned something over the years.

It's a good system to work from in parts but not exclusively (flaws noted above). It doesn't account hooks being thrown from further outside as more fighters could manage to do over the years, as athleticism increased.

There is a real simple method for defending against jab/hook combinations. You catch the jab- don't reach out for it, keep your right hand right in front of your chin. To block the hook, pick your right glove up and shift your weight onto your left foot and turn slightly over that foot. This enables you to roll a bit inside the hook rather than having it hit you square when you block it. Also, it puts you in position to come back with your own left hook. Finally, the motion of turning over the left leg is the same as it is for throwing a right hand; a right uppercut is a nifty counter to a hook to the body and you can drop a straight right inside a wide hook, especially one thrown from outside.
Archie probably didn't account for 'long range hooks' because, in his day, they were thrown mostly by rank amateurs. Indeed, going back to the earliest days of the gloved era, when long range hooks were called swings, they have been viewed with disdain. But, to many in boxing, disdain is nothing to get you down, so that is not why swings fell into disfavor. It was because when you swing, you don't really know which part of your hand is going to hit the opponent so swinging caused hand problems. Modern gloves, not athleticism, have made them favorable again.
Not to mention that boxing is in such dark days, skill-wise, that it is seen as entirely likely that one will fight guys- regularly- that are so defensively inept, that you can leap in and potshot them, like in a movie.

That is nice for inside fighting; slightly turning into a hook or a swing defuses it and set you up off both hands.
Could even set you up to walk out through their shot too, open them up as you head that way.

[jms]

I've been watching a lot of Duran lately and he seemed to follow a lot of pathways on this flowchart, especially as he liked to catch jabs a hell of a lot.

It's funny as there is no 'set play' for defending jab-hook combinations, or hooking of the jab (or off a feinted jab etc).

Both got nailed by similar shots (De Jesus/ Patterson).

If you watch Duran in the rubber match against De Jesus, count the number of jab-hook-cross combinations he throws. Obviously learned something over the years.

It's a good system to work from in parts but not exclusively (flaws noted above). It doesn't account hooks being thrown from further outside as more fighters could manage to do over the years, as athleticism increased.

There is a real simple method for defending against jab/hook combinations. You catch the jab- don't reach out for it, keep your right hand right in front of your chin. To block the hook, pick your right glove up and shift your weight onto your left foot and turn slightly over that foot. This enables you to roll a bit inside the hook rather than having it hit you square when you block it. Also, it puts you in position to come back with your own left hook. Finally, the motion of turning over the left leg is the same as it is for throwing a right hand; a right uppercut is a nifty counter to a hook to the body and you can drop a straight right inside a wide hook, especially one thrown from outside.
Archie probably didn't account for 'long range hooks' because, in his day, they were thrown mostly by rank amateurs. Indeed, going back to the earliest days of the gloved era, when long range hooks were called swings, they have been viewed with disdain. But, to many in boxing, disdain is nothing to get you down, so that is not why swings fell into disfavor. It was because when you swing, you don't really know which part of your hand is going to hit the opponent so swinging caused hand problems. Modern gloves, not athleticism, have made them favorable again.
Not to mention that boxing is in such dark days, skill-wise, that it is seen as entirely likely that one will fight guys- regularly- that are so defensively inept, that you can leap in and potshot them, like in a movie.

Great post! I love that you call it catching whereas a lot of people would consider the same defense a parry. I like the word catch because the punch is coming to you, you don't reach out to parry it. You just let it come to your glove and catch it. Even if you misread, that movement you explained where you shift to your front foot and move the arm out to block flows naturally. Very subtle, but very effective!

About swings, what do you think of the way a lot of the cubans and eastern europeans are hooking? They throw some very long hooks, but the way they sit down and turn their fist over lets them hit with the right part of the hand, plus this type of hook is great for coming around a guard or shoulder.



Fucks your thumb up if you mess up though, especially if your gloves don't let you position the thumb properly.

[showmi]

I've been watching a lot of Duran lately and he seemed to follow a lot of pathways on this flowchart, especially as he liked to catch jabs a hell of a lot.

It's funny as there is no 'set play' for defending jab-hook combinations, or hooking of the jab (or off a feinted jab etc).

Both got nailed by similar shots (De Jesus/ Patterson).

If you watch Duran in the rubber match against De Jesus, count the number of jab-hook-cross combinations he throws. Obviously learned something over the years.

It's a good system to work from in parts but not exclusively (flaws noted above). It doesn't account hooks being thrown from further outside as more fighters could manage to do over the years, as athleticism increased.

There is a real simple method for defending against jab/hook combinations. You catch the jab- don't reach out for it, keep your right hand right in front of your chin. To block the hook, pick your right glove up and

shift your weight onto your left foot and turn slightly over that foot.

This enables you to roll a bit inside the hook rather than having it hit you square when you block it. Also, it puts you in position to come back with your own left hook. Finally, the motion of turning over the left leg is the same as it is for throwing a right hand; a right uppercut is a nifty counter to a hook to the body and you can drop a straight right inside a wide hook, especially one thrown from outside.
Archie probably didn't account for 'long range hooks' because, in his day, they were thrown mostly by rank amateurs. Indeed, going back to the earliest days of the gloved era, when long range hooks were called swings, they have been viewed with disdain. But, to many in boxing, disdain is nothing to get you down, so that is not why swings fell into disfavor. It was because when you swing, you don't really know which part of your hand is going to hit the opponent so swinging caused hand problems. Modern gloves, not athleticism, have made them favorable again.
Not to mention that boxing is in such dark days, skill-wise, that it is seen as entirely likely that one will fight guys- regularly- that are so defensively inept, that you can leap in and potshot them, like in a movie.

after shifting forward can I fall unto the rear foot so I can move into position to fire the straight right? also the counter left hook should be harder if I shift the weight to the rear leg?

[SugarBoxing]

About swings, what do you think of the way a lot of the cubans and eastern europeans are hooking? They throw some very long hooks, but the way they sit down and turn their fist over lets them hit with the right part of the hand, plus this type of hook is great for coming around a guard or shoulder.



Fucks your thumb up if you mess up though, especially if your gloves don't let you position the thumb properly.

This is the corck-screw hook

[greynotsoold]

I've been watching a lot of Duran lately and he seemed to follow a lot of pathways on this flowchart, especially as he liked to catch jabs a hell of a lot.

It's funny as there is no 'set play' for defending jab-hook combinations, or hooking of the jab (or off a feinted jab etc).

Both got nailed by similar shots (De Jesus/ Patterson).

If you watch Duran in the rubber match against De Jesus, count the number of jab-hook-cross combinations he throws. Obviously learned something over the years.

It's a good system to work from in parts but not exclusively (flaws noted above). It doesn't account hooks being thrown from further outside as more fighters could manage to do over the years, as athleticism increased.

There is a real simple method for defending against jab/hook combinations. You catch the jab- don't reach out for it, keep your right hand right in front of your chin. To block the hook, pick your right glove up and

shift your weight onto your left foot and turn slightly over that foot.

This enables you to roll a bit inside the hook rather than having it hit you square when you block it. Also, it puts you in position to come back with your own left hook. Finally, the motion of turning over the left leg is the same as it is for throwing a right hand; a right uppercut is a nifty counter to a hook to the body and you can drop a straight right inside a wide hook, especially one thrown from outside.
Archie probably didn't account for 'long range hooks' because, in his day, they were thrown mostly by rank amateurs. Indeed, going back to the earliest days of the gloved era, when long range hooks were called swings, they have been viewed with disdain. But, to many in boxing, disdain is nothing to get you down, so that is not why swings fell into disfavor. It was because when you swing, you don't really know which part of your hand is going to hit the opponent so swinging caused hand problems. Modern gloves, not athleticism, have made them favorable again.
Not to mention that boxing is in such dark days, skill-wise, that it is seen as entirely likely that one will fight guys- regularly- that are so defensively inept, that you can leap in and potshot them, like in a movie.

after shifting forward can I fall unto the rear foot so I can move into position to fire the straight right? also the counter left hook should be harder if I shift the weight to the rear leg?

The weight shifting onto the left leg and you turning over it is the motion to throw a straight right hand. To throw a left hook the weight goes from the left leg to the right leg; the weight ending up there leaves you set to throw a right hand.

[jms]

About swings, what do you think of the way a lot of the cubans and eastern europeans are hooking? They throw some very long hooks, but the way they sit down and turn their fist over lets them hit with the right part of the hand, plus this type of hook is great for coming around a guard or shoulder.



Fucks your thumb up if you mess up though, especially if your gloves don't let you position the thumb properly.

This is the corck-screw hook

I've heard it called a million things--corkscrew hook, russian long hook, cuban hook, casting punch, swing, overhand left, etc. What I know is it's a favorite among the commies, and it's the way I was taught to throw a left hook that needs to come around a guard or shoulder. My coach doesn't have any special name for it, it's just a left hook after all.

[greynotsoold]

I'd like to see his feet in that clip because it doesn't seem to me that there should be a lot on that punch, though he placed it about perfect. It seems the power was in the step because he certainly didn't get his weight turned on it.
When I was in Phoenix, one of the guys that I worked with teaching secretaries how to box used to teach that and it drove me nuts. He said it was an amateur boxing scoring thing, to make it clear that the white part of the glove was landing.

[jms]

I'd like to see his feet in that clip because it doesn't seem to me that there should be a lot on that punch, though he placed it about perfect. It seems the power was in the step because he certainly didn't get his weight turned on it.
When I was in Phoenix, one of the guys that I worked with teaching secretaries how to box used to teach that and it drove me nuts. He said it was an amateur boxing scoring thing, to make it clear that the white part of the glove was landing.

The mechanics are strange, like halfway between a jab and a hook. He starts with shoulders square and weight forward, then pushes off his left foot to get his weight moving back. As it moves back he steps with his lead foot. The beauty is that he steps the front foot, sits down on his back foot, finishes turning his shoulders and lands the punch all at the same time. Interesting enough, the main event of the most recent UFC card ended the same way:



Not nearly the same level of technique (especially the other guy's defense), but still a well executed 1-3 coming forward.

[showmi]

I've been watching a lot of Duran lately and he seemed to follow a lot of pathways on this flowchart, especially as he liked to catch jabs a hell of a lot.

It's funny as there is no 'set play' for defending jab-hook combinations, or hooking of the jab (or off a feinted jab etc).

Both got nailed by similar shots (De Jesus/ Patterson).

If you watch Duran in the rubber match against De Jesus, count the number of jab-hook-cross combinations he throws. Obviously learned something over the years.

It's a good system to work from in parts but not exclusively (flaws noted above). It doesn't account hooks being thrown from further outside as more fighters could manage to do over the years, as athleticism increased.

There is a real simple method for defending against jab/hook combinations. You catch the jab- don't reach out for it, keep your right hand right in front of your chin. To block the hook, pick your right glove up and

shift your weight onto your left foot and turn slightly over that foot.

This enables you to roll a bit inside the hook rather than having it hit you square when you block it. Also, it puts you in position to come back with your own left hook. Finally, the motion of turning over the left leg is the same as it is for throwing a right hand; a right uppercut is a nifty counter to a hook to the body and you can drop a straight right inside a wide hook, especially one thrown from outside.
Archie probably didn't account for 'long range hooks' because, in his day, they were thrown mostly by rank amateurs. Indeed, going back to the earliest days of the gloved era, when long range hooks were called swings, they have been viewed with disdain. But, to many in boxing, disdain is nothing to get you down, so that is not why swings fell into disfavor. It was because when you swing, you don't really know which part of your hand is going to hit the opponent so swinging caused hand problems. Modern gloves, not athleticism, have made them favorable again.
Not to mention that boxing is in such dark days, skill-wise, that it is seen as entirely likely that one will fight guys- regularly- that are so defensively inept, that you can leap in and potshot them, like in a movie.

after shifting forward can I fall unto the rear foot so I can move into position to fire the straight right? also the counter left hook should be harder if I shift the weight to the rear leg?

The weight shifting onto the left leg and you turning over it is the motion to throw a straight right hand. To throw a left hook the weight goes from the left leg to the right leg; the weight ending up there leaves you set to throw a right hand.

what is the difference from the Joe Frazier left hook and the one described? Is the rear knee bent with the weight on it?

[greynotsoold]

Joe frazier pushed off his left foot. A lot of guys do this, and, most times, the weight doesn't get back to the right foot. This steals a bit from the left hook- why frazier was a hard puncher, but had to hit you a lot- and the right hand, which is why frazier has a reputation for being a one handed fighter.
Turning your weight ahead of your hands gives concussive force to your punch, like cracking a whip. If your weight is behind your hands you are pushing and, even if you push very hard, it is still pushing.

[showmi]

I've been watching a lot of Duran lately and he seemed to follow a lot of pathways on this flowchart, especially as he liked to catch jabs a hell of a lot.

It's funny as there is no 'set play' for defending jab-hook combinations, or hooking of the jab (or off a feinted jab etc).

Both got nailed by similar shots (De Jesus/ Patterson).

If you watch Duran in the rubber match against De Jesus, count the number of jab-hook-cross combinations he throws. Obviously learned something over the years.

It's a good system to work from in parts but not exclusively (flaws noted above). It doesn't account hooks being thrown from further outside as more fighters could manage to do over the years, as athleticism increased.

There is a real simple method for defending against jab/hook combinations. You catch the jab- don't reach out for it, keep your right hand right in front of your chin. To block the hook, pick your right glove up and

shift your weight onto your left foot and turn slightly over that foot.

This enables you to roll a bit inside the hook rather than having it hit you square when you block it. Also, it puts you in position to come back with your own left hook. Finally, the motion of turning over the left leg is the same as it is for throwing a right hand; a right uppercut is a nifty counter to a hook to the body and you can drop a straight right inside a wide hook, especially one thrown from outside.
Archie probably didn't account for 'long range hooks' because, in his day, they were thrown mostly by rank amateurs. Indeed, going back to the earliest days of the gloved era, when long range hooks were called swings, they have been viewed with disdain. But, to many in boxing, disdain is nothing to get you down, so that is not why swings fell into disfavor. It was because when you swing, you don't really know which part of your hand is going to hit the opponent so swinging caused hand problems. Modern gloves, not athleticism, have made them favorable again.
Not to mention that boxing is in such dark days, skill-wise, that it is seen as entirely likely that one will fight guys- regularly- that are so defensively inept, that you can leap in and potshot them, like in a movie.

after shifting forward can I fall unto the rear foot so I can move into position to fire the straight right? also the counter left hook should be harder if I shift the weight to the rear leg?

The weight shifting onto the left leg and you turning over it is the motion to throw a straight right hand. To throw a left hook the weight goes from the left leg to the right leg; the weight ending up there leaves you set to throw a right hand.

that's how I throw the left hook, however my coach says that if I miss with the LH I'll be off balance how do you respond to that claim?

[greynotsoold]

I don't agree with that. If you throw the hook after a right hand, for example, what it basically does is return your feet to their original position, right? And your starting stance should be the most balanced. Pushing off the front foot will get you more off balance; watch close when you watch the fights and see how many guys get wobbles after throwing a hook.

[Scrap]

Greys, I think the problem when people throw the hook is balance. Problem being most of the time is when they try and take it past there right shoulder, losing balance and power, also setting themselves up for a counter hook.