Floyd camp's PED propaganda!

[TitoFan]

Nice try with the inductive reasoning attempt but it won’t work my young friend. It won’t work because it’s filled with apples and oranges. Tommy Hearns did not carry his bone crusher power with him beyond 154. When he walked into the Kronk Gym he sported an amateur record of 166 fights with 155 with 11 ko's.

Manny taught him how to punch and sit down on his shots whereas the amateur system took advantage of his freak stature by pointing fights out because of the ridiculous scoring criteria.
His power peaked at 154 even though he could obviously still bang but he did grow out of his advantage in that regard.

Leonard had his power shut off at 154 so I'm a little perplexed with these comparisons. Roy Jones was a freak of nature and with him it was his speed and timing of his punches as much as it was about power. Gatti only fought in the 126 area in a few early fights and when he fought at 130 it was his size compared to the rest of the field the night of the fight. This helped him through 135 with those who would trade. By the time he got beat by Robinson back to back he was outgrowing 135. Even at 140 it was evident that he was a welter. Remember scale gate with poor Joey Gomache?


Pac is different then all of these guys. What he took with him as he moved up has not been seen in the history of the sport. His power increased exponentially and so did his speed, footwork and the whole enchilada. He didn't just beat the cream of the crop moving up, he destroyed them. Now maybe it was all legit after all he was never caught but they didn't test and let’s all not forget that Uinsane Bolt has never been caught and he's tested all the time. The speed of designer drugs is simply ahead of the curve and imo Manny found one that worked wonders. Like they are designed to do. Anybody who didn’t think questions would be asked and accusations leveled along the way had/has a bad case of ostrich syndrome.

And that leads to my final point. This whole PED thing is a red herring. Somebody provide me a list of those that would not test hot with relevant testing? Everybody thinks everybody is juicing so why is it even a topic? Furthermore, because of these antiquated testing requirements that in fact enable these cheaters to cheat is there even an opening for accusations? If anything this shit is systemic and if ever unmasked probably the norm.

Good post, but I'm gonna have to disagree with this particular point. Just because PED use is wide spread and as you said... ahead of the curve... does not prove that everybody's juicing. I'm not prepared at this point to provide a list of fighters that would not "test hot with relevant testing", but I still disagree with such a broad, all-encompassing statement. I will agree that the vast majority is doing it, however. In a way it's no different than the popular team sports. It used to be that people would ooh and ahh with every news story of a baseball player caught using PED's. Now it's more like "yawnnnn.... another one".

Obviously the answer is to spend more money on testing procedures, trying to close the gap between testing and doping.

[IamInuit]

Good post, but I'm gonna have to disagree with this particular point. Just because PED use is wide spread and as you said... ahead of the curve... does not prove that everybody's juicing. I'm not prepared at this point to provide a list of fighters that would not "test hot with relevant testing", but I still disagree with such a broad, all-encompassing statement. I will agree that the vast majority is doing it, however. In a way it's no different than the popular team sports. It used to be that people would ooh and ahh with every news story of a baseball player caught using PED's. Now it's more like "yawnnnn.... another one".

Obviously the answer is to spend more money on testing procedures, trying to close the gap between testing and doping.

Glad you raised that and I also hang onto that belief but at a certain level I think you almost have to in one way or another unless you are a Floyd or Ward, Calzaghe or Jofre. The alternative in many cases is that you will be beaten by someone who is. I think I clarified my position in later posts on the degree of there use. My point is chances are in many cases the guy that is busted was just stupid and his opponent wasn't so he passed the pee test.

PEDS are a broad, broad spectrum. Its much more then cycling systems with roids. The blanket statement I made was really in a devils advocate role. I do believe that the system as it stands today is the biggest enabler of the very thing it claims to be against.There is no adequate testing because they don't want it.They cant even organize a pension plan after 150 years.

[TitoFan]

Good post, but I'm gonna have to disagree with this particular point. Just because PED use is wide spread and as you said... ahead of the curve... does not prove that everybody's juicing. I'm not prepared at this point to provide a list of fighters that would not "test hot with relevant testing", but I still disagree with such a broad, all-encompassing statement. I will agree that the vast majority is doing it, however. In a way it's no different than the popular team sports. It used to be that people would ooh and ahh with every news story of a baseball player caught using PED's. Now it's more like "yawnnnn.... another one".

Obviously the answer is to spend more money on testing procedures, trying to close the gap between testing and doping.

Glad you raised that and I also hang onto that belief but at a certain level I think you almost have to in one way or another unless you are a Floyd or Ward, Calzaghe or Jofre. The alternative in many cases is that you will be beaten by someone who is. I think I clarified my position in later posts on the degree of there use. My point is chances are in many cases the guy that is busted was just stupid and his opponent wasn't so he passed the pee test.

PEDS are a broad, broad spectrum. Its much more then cycling systems with roids. The blanket statement I made was really in a devils advocate role. I do believe that the system as it stands today is the biggest enabler of the very thing it claims to be against.There is no adequate testing because they don't want it.They cant even organize a pension plan after 150 years.

I don't know that "they don't want it", as much as it may be that they just find it's too much trouble and too costly to pursue this adequate testing ideal. They probably say, "aww, the hell with it... everybody's doing it anyway", and throw their hands up in the air. You're right on point when you state that it's creating a situation where if you don't dope you'll eventually get beaten by somebody who does.

Eventually this may result in a situation that may very well threaten the sport. Imagine everybody on PEDs, where everyone's strength, endurance, power, speed is incremented by "X" amount. Unfortunately, the brain and its cushioning is the one thing that does not get upgraded by PED use. So boxers are continually subjecting themselves to harder punches without the opponent suffering the fatigue that a non-user might suffer. This will undoubtedly result in more spectacular knockouts, more brain damage... maybe even more deaths.

I'm a fan of both JMM and Pac. But I can't help but think about JMM's KO of Pac, and the KO's that Pac himself has administered. JMM is a terrific boxer and a surefire first ballot HOF'er. But the JMM that laid out Pac seemed different than the previous version of JMM. More muscular... more powerful. Now... I'm not making any accusations, but you cannot help but think about the possibility. Yes, Pac was moving in at the time of the punch... but c'mon. He went down as if shot. Regarding Pac, as you yourself have mentioned.... Pac moved up several divisions in weight while becoming faster and more powerful. Weights and training... maybe. But again one cannot help but think about the possibility.

At this point I'm not condemning anyone, but rather throwing a thought out there that should be viewed as a caution to those who police and protect the sport. If, as you say, everyone's juicing.... the trend will only increase, as fighters seek that coveted edge over their opponents. It becomes a contest of PEDs. Which ones are less detectable.... which ones give me more power than the others. The more I think about it, the more it seems that the only way to truly protect the sport and the fighters is to quit the hand-wringing over the widespread use and new masking techniques, and spend the money necessary to combat its use.

[IamInuit]

Good post, but I'm gonna have to disagree with this particular point. Just because PED use is wide spread and as you said... ahead of the curve... does not prove that everybody's juicing. I'm not prepared at this point to provide a list of fighters that would not "test hot with relevant testing", but I still disagree with such a broad, all-encompassing statement. I will agree that the vast majority is doing it, however. In a way it's no different than the popular team sports. It used to be that people would ooh and ahh with every news story of a baseball player caught using PED's. Now it's more like "yawnnnn.... another one".

Obviously the answer is to spend more money on testing procedures, trying to close the gap between testing and doping.

Glad you raised that and I also hang onto that belief but at a certain level I think you almost have to in one way or another unless you are a Floyd or Ward, Calzaghe or Jofre. The alternative in many cases is that you will be beaten by someone who is. I think I clarified my position in later posts on the degree of there use. My point is chances are in many cases the guy that is busted was just stupid and his opponent wasn't so he passed the pee test.

PEDS are a broad, broad spectrum. Its much more then cycling systems with roids. The blanket statement I made was really in a devils advocate role. I do believe that the system as it stands today is the biggest enabler of the very thing it claims to be against.There is no adequate testing because they don't want it.They cant even organize a pension plan after 150 years.

I don't know that "they don't want it", as much as it may be that they just find it's too much trouble and too costly to pursue this adequate testing ideal. They probably say, "aww, the hell with it... everybody's doing it anyway", and throw their hands up in the air. You're right on point when you state that it's creating a situation where if you don't dope you'll eventually get beaten by somebody who does.

Eventually this may result in a situation that may very well threaten the sport. Imagine everybody on PEDs, where everyone's strength, endurance, power, speed is incremented by "X" amount. Unfortunately, the brain and its cushioning is the one thing that does not get upgraded by PED use. So boxers are continually subjecting themselves to harder punches without the opponent suffering the fatigue that a non-user might suffer. This will undoubtedly result in more spectacular knockouts, more brain damage... maybe even more deaths.

I'm a fan of both JMM and Pac. But I can't help but think about JMM's KO of Pac, and the KO's that Pac himself has administered. JMM is a terrific boxer and a surefire first ballot HOF'er. But the JMM that laid out Pac seemed different than the previous version of JMM. More muscular... more powerful. Now... I'm not making any accusations, but you cannot help but think about the possibility. Yes, Pac was moving in at the time of the punch... but c'mon. He went down as if shot. Regarding Pac, as you yourself have mentioned.... Pac moved up several divisions in weight while becoming faster and more powerful. Weights and training... maybe. But again one cannot help but think about the possibility.

At this point I'm not condemning anyone, but rather throwing a thought out there that should be viewed as a caution to those who police and protect the sport. If, as you say, everyone's juicing.... the trend will only increase, as fighters seek that coveted edge over their opponents. It becomes a contest of PEDs. Which ones are less detectable.... which ones give me more power than the others. The more I think about it, the more it seems that the only way to truly protect the sport and the fighters is to quit the hand-wringing over the widespread use and new masking techniques, and spend the money necessary to combat its use.

The fact that we could debate whether certain fighters have or have not and which verging fighters may or may not be pretty much makes my case. I'm not saying we shouldn't be pissed off about it but we shouldn't cherry pick either given the probable status quo. My beef is that there is a system that enables cheating. Not only does it actually enable it but it condones it by its own lack of action. We then shit on the fighter that gets busted while earlier enjoying the fruits of his labour. Imagine going to a world track meet and watching a 12 second 100 meteres?

We are about to watch a fight in which 1 of the fighters juiced over a certain period and still could be. I think I'm not alone in that belief but based on the fact that he is about to most likely make 100 million dollars for his next fight I suppose you would have to ask him if it was worth it given the present testing regimes.

[Beanflicker]

Good post, but I'm gonna have to disagree with this particular point. Just because PED use is wide spread and as you said... ahead of the curve... does not prove that everybody's juicing. I'm not prepared at this point to provide a list of fighters that would not "test hot with relevant testing", but I still disagree with such a broad, all-encompassing statement. I will agree that the vast majority is doing it, however. In a way it's no different than the popular team sports. It used to be that people would ooh and ahh with every news story of a baseball player caught using PED's. Now it's more like "yawnnnn.... another one".

Obviously the answer is to spend more money on testing procedures, trying to close the gap between testing and doping.

Glad you raised that and I also hang onto that belief but at a certain level I think you almost have to in one way or another unless you are a Floyd or Ward, Calzaghe or Jofre. The alternative in many cases is that you will be beaten by someone who is. I think I clarified my position in later posts on the degree of there use. My point is chances are in many cases the guy that is busted was just stupid and his opponent wasn't so he passed the pee test.

PEDS are a broad, broad spectrum. Its much more then cycling systems with roids. The blanket statement I made was really in a devils advocate role. I do believe that the system as it stands today is the biggest enabler of the very thing it claims to be against.There is no adequate testing because they don't want it.They cant even organize a pension plan after 150 years.

I don't know that "they don't want it", as much as it may be that they just find it's too much trouble and too costly to pursue this adequate testing ideal.

I don't think anyone really benefits from people getting busted using steroids, other than athletes competing who aren't using steroids.

The leagues/promoters/ect benefit because they get better performances by superior athletes. Look at what steroids did to the game of baseball: it was never more exciting than in the 90s when Sosa and McGwire, two roided up meatheads, were chasing the home run record. They allow athletes to compete at a higher level and for longer into their career, which means substantially more money.

Fans get to watch and enjoy the higher level of athletic competition, and they get to see their favourite athletes have much longer careers thanks to chemical enhancement.

The athletes who use benefit because it allows them to compete at that higher level and longer, making much more money for longer periods of time.

And at the end of the day, all this extra money brought in from steroid use benefits the commissions, because they are taking a % of the gross.

What people really want is the illusion that all their heroes aren't cheating and the playing field is truly level. So for decades the commissions said "hey, everyone's clean, we got them to piss into a cup on a set date and the sample was clean, they're drug tested so everyone go about their business and keep the money coming in." Now finally that illusion has disappeared with all these steroid labs being busted and all this talk about undetectable designer drugs, and guys like Lance Armstrong coming out and admitting he cheated for 20 years without being caught... so now they are scrambling to build up that illusion again.