Every Great Boxer Has a Flaw

[Beanflicker]

Agreed with Tito and I think it's a bit naive to assume that just because a guy doesn't do something, that he CAN'T do something, especially when you are talking about virtuosos like Roy and Floyd who could do anything they wanted in the ring and made it look easy due to their physical gifts and ring IQ.

I mean really, as fast as Floyd is (especially in his prime at 130-140)... am I supposed to believe he couldn't put together a combination if he wanted to? That he was in the gym trying to throw 6 punches on the bag and just wasn't coordinated or agile enough to do it? Or is it more plausible that combinations just don't factor in to his defensive, "safety first" style?

Do I think that Roy, an olympic gold medalist (we all know he was), a guy who went 15 years undefeated (besides the avenged DQ loss) and won world titles from middleweight to heavyweight... that he never learned boxing fundamentals? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Roy's defence wasn't all about being fast: he had to have the fundamentals of movement and range to fight his style. And he wasn't a rope-a-doper: he was AMAZING at catching and rolling shots on the ropes and countering with his own brutal shots. Watch Roy Jones vs Brannon, that's not rope-a-dope, that's brilliant in-fighting coming from sound fundamentals and many years of learning in the gym. You can't accomplish what Roy did in his career without fundamentals. Yeah Jones sucked once he was in his mid 30s, but so did Leonard, Whitaker, Robinson, and just about every other quick slickster I can think of outside of Floyd and Bhop.

[SlimTrae]

I'll counter.
The example of RJJ vs Brannon occurred when?
Youth, prime?
That was and is my argument. That fight Roy was in his youth years
Fundamentals don't get lost as one grows older, speed does reflexes do.
So where was that for eight plus rounds against Glencoffe? Tarver?
And that example u listed is about it.
Roy vs Toney P4P fight, you would argue that was NOT Roy displaying talent, youth? , Rather fundamentals? What round?
What actions? DEFENSIVELY or offensively, please elaborate.

And for the statement of assumption, for me it is a proclamation. I even gave examples of fights where he did throw punches -plural. Saying Floyd could have thrown combos but chose not to ...
Is as far to the outer limits of claim Cassius Clay (could) have been a body puncher BUT..
He chose not too.
End game for me: Floyd did put shots together vs Corley, Gatti Augustus & -probably a few rookie fights. He doesn't throw them today because he doesn't throw them well.
Its on you gents: Good dialogue both ways!

[TitoFan]

Muhammad was another one that was prone to the useless combos. As blasphemic as that may sound, it's true. Pitty-pat punches designed to do......... NOTHING, really. I love combinations as much as the next guy. The powerful double hook... one to the body, another to the head... and scores of other combos that put guys on their butts. But I'd rather watch a guy methodically pick his spots, looking for where the punch will best go through and be most effective.... than the useless "round-grabbing" flurry of nothing punches. That's actually one of my biggest pet peeves in the sport.

[SlimTrae]

Muhammad was another one that was prone to the useless combos. As blasphemic as that may sound, it's true. Pitty-pat punches designed to do......... NOTHING, really. I love combinations as much as the next guy. The powerful double hook... one to the body, another to the head... and scores of other combos that put guys on their butts. But I'd rather watch a guy methodically pick his spots, looking for where the punch will best go through and be most effective.... than the useless "round-grabbing" flurry of nothing punches. That's actually one of my biggest pet peeves in the sport.

I agree, it's those RJJ power combos I like.
Especially when Haglar had Ray on the ropes round 10 & Ray combos his way off the ropes. Haglar had no response.
Or the many combos Ray landed to take the title from Benitez. Really a war of attrition to which Ray's power proved underrated.
Can't say I've ever seen RJJ throw useless pitty-pat combos.
That I would attribute to someone like Paulie Malinaggi.

Andre Dirrell also throws combos that have impact.

Again, Floyd has thrown combos in a few early fights, but he can't throw them like RJJ, Sugar Ray, Meldrick Taylor, fighters who throw (meaningful) combinations.

[Beanflicker]

Muhammad was another one that was prone to the useless combos. As blasphemic as that may sound, it's true. Pitty-pat punches designed to do......... NOTHING, really. I love combinations as much as the next guy. The powerful double hook... one to the body, another to the head... and scores of other combos that put guys on their butts. But I'd rather watch a guy methodically pick his spots, looking for where the punch will best go through and be most effective.... than the useless "round-grabbing" flurry of nothing punches. That's actually one of my biggest pet peeves in the sport.

For sure... the "shoe shining". I was never a fan of it.

I love a good 2 punch combo but when you commit to throwing more than that, you're running the risk of being countered. Like what happened to Khan, he committed to a multi-punch combo against Garcia and Danny came right over the top as he was throwing his third punch and put him on his ass, in a fight that Khan looked to be well on his way to winning.

A guy like Floyd has forgotten more about boxing than any of us will probably ever know, so I assume if he doesn't throw them there's a good reason for it.

[Bill Paxtom]

A Twist,

'Every Great Boxer Has A Flaw'

or

'The Boxer Who Was A Great Fighting Machine'

[Beanflicker]

I'll counter.
The example of RJJ vs Brannon occurred when?
Youth, prime?
That was and is my argument. That fight Roy was in his youth years
Fundamentals don't get lost as one grows older, speed does reflexes do.
So where was that for eight plus rounds against Glencoffe? Tarver?
And that example u listed is about it.
Roy vs Toney P4P fight, you would argue that was NOT Roy displaying talent, youth? , Rather fundamentals? What round?
What actions? DEFENSIVELY or offensively, please elaborate.

And for the statement of assumption, for me it is a proclamation. I even gave examples of fights where he did throw punches -plural. Saying Floyd could have thrown combos but chose not to ...
Is as far to the outer limits of claim Cassius Clay (could) have been a body puncher BUT..
He chose not too.
End game for me: Floyd did put shots together vs Corley, Gatti Augustus & -probably a few rookie fights. He doesn't throw them today because he doesn't throw them well.
Its on you gents: Good dialogue both ways!

I think where we differ is that you seem to be looking at athletic ability and technique like they're mutually exclusive: either one relies on technique/fundamentals, or he relies on athletic ability. Athletic ability, speed, reflexes, ect is what powers the technique. You can't succeed in boxing with just one or the other. You used the example of James Toney as a great fundamentalist, but to pull off that slick counter-punching, shoulder rolling defence, he needed the speed and reflexes to do it, as he was a great athlete when he was in shape. If you look at James in his prime and then when he hit his mid to late 30s... he was getting hit with shots he never would haven taken in his prime.

All that shit that Roy did - catching punches, slipping punches, ducking punches, rolling punches... that's not stuff he made up on the spot. That's hundreds of hours in the gym from childhood to adulthood to be able to do that stuff. Guys like Mike McCallum have listed Jones as the smartest fighter he's ever fought.

And to say Floyd can't throw combinations well? As good as Floyd is, as technically brilliant as he is, as long as he's been training... you really believe he couldn't figure out how to throw a combination well?

[TitoFan]

This is the kind of boxing debate I truly enjoy. Much respect to you both, Slim and Bean.... that's what makes the forum fun. I especially enjoy this type of debate because it has to do with boxing technique and styles. What makes a boxer great... or not so great. I'd have to admit you don't see Floyd throwing a lot of combinations, at least in this day and age. But to agree with Bean, it's not because he can't or doesn't know how. I just think he's found that he can be just as effective in winning fights by using his punches the way he does. Is he defensive-minded? Absolutely. A great boxer should be. Floyd has been successful after a long career in avoiding the punishment that causes long-term damage. Nothing wrong with that. Sugar Ray Leonard did the same thing.... and look at him today.

I like fireworks in my boxing matches, but I can respect a great defensive fighter like Floyd, SRL, and others. In another thread, I encouraged discussion and comparisons between Floyd and Wladimir Klitschko. In my very personal opinion, they cannot be compared. Floyd's defensive skills are a marvel to look at. The shoulder rolls, the cat-like reflexes.... I've always enjoyed seeing the slo-mo's of Floyd pulling back from a punch... only to recoil back and hit the opponent with his own flush shot. Whereas my opinions on Wlad have always been clear. I'll always believe he never quite got over those early career KO losses... and his way of avoiding punishment is not by defensive wizardry... but by questionable tactics that tend to mar his fights and piss off fans wanting a good quality fight.

Would I have preferred that Floyd go for the kill against Pacquiao? Sure. A part of me wanted Pac to win... but only if Pac went in there with the skills and drive to beat Floyd. He fell woefully short, and the better man won. When I saw Pac had no chance against Floyd, I wanted Floyd to make it definitive by way of stoppage. But that's not Floyd's style. It's never been his style... so he shouldn't be criticized.

I've always known to separate the fighter from the man, his style from his results, etc., etc. So while I find Floyd to be less than an exemplary human being..... and while I find that I would prefer for Floyd to have a little more offense in his arsenal.... I can't fault him for finding a way to win every time out.

[SlimTrae]

Actually i agree with your take on his athletic ability.
My argument isn't based on facts, rather my opinion that Floyd doesn't use combos because they are risky- rather the dude just can't me em look sweet

[Bill Paxtom]

Great Boxer

If we use Cassius Clay as an example {Oh Geez}, he didn't have 'one flaw', he had many.

But, the many flaws were often not discussed, because of his lightning speed.

It is speed coupled with quickness that can cover up for flaws.
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"Oh. Now I get it. The flaws are sometimes not seen. Like when you're under the covers in bed." ........... Donna Mills

[SlimTrae]

Great Boxer

If we use Cassius Clay as an example {Oh Geez}, he didn't have 'one flaw', he had many.

But, the many flaws were often not discussed, because of his lightning speed.

It is speed coupled with quickness that can cover up for flaws.
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"Oh. Now I get it. The flaws are sometimes not seen. Like when you're under the covers in bed." ........... Donna Mills

The most gifted fighter who lacked so much.
If Dundee had gotten him to go to the body, maybe he wouldn't have gone life and death with Frazier and Norton.
Dundee as much as i like him was basically a yes man for Ali. A GLORIFIED cheerleader.
Ali and RJJ relied on reflexes way too much.
When it left them, they didn't have skills that they honed.
Their workouts imo was about staying in shape, they both ate right, abstained from drugs, alcohol, but didn't have a plan (B)
,a recipe for a flawed fighter.
Reflexes as u stated- so fast, so agile their youth hid their flaws.