"Ali hate"..... what's the point??

[TitoFan]

If we're gonna be real, let's be real. This is the real reason many whites hated Ali for refusing to be drafted.




Who knows how many blacks felt the same way back in the 60's, but obviously didn't have the chance or nerve to express it.

[Bill Paxtom]

For Once and For All.

Does anybody really think that Cassius Clay would have been 'humping it' in
the Rice Paddies of the Mekong River Delta in 1967 at {Age; 25}

Come on now.

Cassius wasn't qualified in any Military skills.

He would have had a 'cake job' at some Supply Depot in Guam or Hawaii.

Private First Class, Cassius M. Clay.

The reason he didn't want to be drafted, is because he thought he was a 'celebrity'
with special exemptions.

[brocktonblockbust]

Ali joined the Elijah Muhammad/Wallace Fard Muhammad brand of Islam.....attending those weirdo sessions where they taught a distinctive form of Islam to members of the city's African-American population.
there had sprung an even more militant branch than the Nation of Islam itself. This new movement, known as the Temple People, identifies the prophet, Mr. W.D. Fard, with the god Allah. To Mr. Fard alone did they offer prayer and sacrifice. Since Mr. Fard has been deified, the Temple People raise to the rank of prophet the former Minister of Islam, Elijah Mohammed of Chicago. He is always referred to reverently as the ‘Prophet Elijah in Chicago'.

When Malcolm X went to perform hajj in Mecca, he realized how wrong this NOI branch was----they thought up until then that only black people were Muslims. He saw white Muslims and Chinese Muslims and Turks and Bosnian Muslims in Mecca, and it blew his mind.

Ali realized years later that he had bought into a bunch of racist pro-black NOI BULLSHIT.

[Master]

When you are young you are very ideological but when you get older you mature. It happens to us all, even Bill.

[Bill Paxtom]

When you are young you are very ideological but when you get older you mature. It happens to us all, even Bill.

Cassius Clay wasn't 'ideological'.

He was a 'clown' that was well known. Yes he could box too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It's easy to become well known. All you have to do is become an 'Asshole'."

Sheree North

[Master]

Ideological, clown and immature all the same thing.

[brocktonblockbust]

If he was a true Muslim as he acted like he was {we already know he wasnt because as I stated he was a follower of the militant, racial version of Islam} he NEVER would have hurt so many peoples' feelings like Joe Frazier's for example. Never, never, never. He wanted to talk about/feign spirituality but his disgusting behavior towards Joe and several others of his own race WERE ANYTHING BUT holy, religious, spiritual, enlightened.

[Beanflicker]

Who knows how many blacks felt the same way back in the 60's, but obviously didn't have the chance or nerve to express it.

For sure and you can definitely question why a black man would want to go fight for a country that treated him like a second class citizen.

But again I have to ask where was this bravado BEFORE he was made eligible for the draft? Where were these brash opinions when it was other black men going over to Vietnam and getting killed? Did he use his platform to preach this to help out his fellow (black) man when he himself was in the clear? Or did he only become vocal when he dodged the draft and needed to address why he chose to do so?

[Master]

Who knows how many blacks felt the same way back in the 60's, but obviously didn't have the chance or nerve to express it.

For sure and you can definitely question why a black man would want to go fight for a country that treated him like a second class citizen.

But again I have to ask where was this bravado BEFORE he was made eligible for the draft? Where were these brash opinions when it was other black men going over to Vietnam and getting killed? Did he use his platform to preach this to help out his fellow (black) man when he himself was in the clear? Or did he only become vocal when he dodged the draft and needed to address why he chose to do so?

Ali went against the system before the vietnam war, he changed his name, he joined the nation of Islam that is enough protest against the establishment than you can get.

[TitoFan]

Who knows how many blacks felt the same way back in the 60's, but obviously didn't have the chance or nerve to express it.

For sure and you can definitely question why a black man would want to go fight for a country that treated him like a second class citizen.

But again I have to ask where was this bravado BEFORE he was made eligible for the draft? Where were these brash opinions when it was other black men going over to Vietnam and getting killed? Did he use his platform to preach this to help out his fellow (black) man when he himself was in the clear? Or did he only become vocal when he dodged the draft and needed to address why he chose to do so?

Ali went against the system before the vietnam war, he changed his name, he joined the nation of Islam that is enough protest against the establishment than you can get.

You're absolutely right, Master. But I'll go one further.

To me it matters not whether he was an activist against the Vietnam war before he was drafted or not. Or whether he used his platform as a way of protesting or not. What matters is that he very clearly pointed out his thoughts about going over to 'Nam to fight for a society that treated him and every black like a 2nd class citizen.

One can never be sure how one would act under similar circumstances, but I'll say this: If I'd been draft eligible in the '60s and been born black..... I'd probably have had the same exact thoughts Ali expressed out loud while others didn't.

[Beanflicker]

To me it matters not whether he was an activist against the Vietnam war before he was drafted or not. Or whether he used his platform as a way of protesting or not.

Well that's fine if it doesn't matter to you, but when discussing someone's actions and debating whether or not they constitute "heroic", you need to look at whether they were acting altruistically or egoistically.

Christopher Reeve donations to fund spinal cord and paralysis research went up considerably after he himself was paralysed. Do you look at him as a hero for donating so much of his time and resources to the cause? Or do you feel that his generosity was predictable, given his new vested interest in finding a cure for paralysis?

We can all have our definition of hero, but I would suggest than when a man refuses to stand up for a cause and help others until he himself becomes a victim and NEEDS to stand up for the cause... he is not heroic, but merely acting in a predictable way to protect his own self interest.

I think there's enough good about Ali where we don't have to twist shit around and try to give him credit for things he never did. He was the greatest HW of all time, he overcame a ton of adversity in the ring and proved he had a true warrior's heart. He was a great personality, he was smart, and he inspired millions around the world. But he could also be an asshole just like anyone else. He demonstrated very clearly that he could be a tremendous asshole.

[Master]

Did you read what Tito wrote?

No one is making him out to be a hero but he certainly was not a coward. He did what he did, for whatever reason, it took balls. That is the point and it was not an easy way out.

[Beanflicker]

Did you read what Tito wrote?

No one is making him out to be a hero but he certainly was not a coward. He did what he did, for whatever reason, it took balls. That is the point and it was not an easy way out.

Of course I read it. You'll notice I even quoted a portion of it.

Did you read what I wrote? My point is that it takes balls to selflessly stand up for a cause, even though you are not a victim of the cause. When you are standing up for a cause because you are the victim and it benefits you to support the cause... that's self preservation.

He dodged the draft and had to come up with a reason to save face.

I don't think he was a coward, but it seems like you guys feel that one is either a coward or a hero. There's a lot of middle ground in between there and that's where Ali lands IMO in terms of this particular topic.

[TitoFan]

Did you read what Tito wrote?

No one is making him out to be a hero but he certainly was not a coward. He did what he did, for whatever reason, it took balls. That is the point and it was not an easy way out.

Yeah Bean. That's pretty much my point. I'm not pushing the hero agenda, but I bristle when people that weren't even around during those times, nor had the same experiences in life that he did.... are quick to label him a coward..... or even suggest they know why he refused to be drafted. Like I've said before.... there are haters and there are HATERS. I know you can debate your point rationally because you're not a HATER the way I view them, which is they block out any rational counter arguments because it does not fuel their irrational hate.