Is Gatti a worthy candidate for the Hall of Fame?

[Wacko3205]

Heart and Soul: Gatti's Hall of Fame ticket

http://www.secondsout.com/USA/news.cfm?ccs=229&cs=20319

By Ant Evans: An Arturo Gatti fight at the Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City, New Jersey, is always an occasion. But when 'Thunder' was stopped in nine rounds in his challenge WBC and linear welterweight champion Carlos Baldomir on July 22 it was a sombre occasion. An occasion which forced even some of Gatti's most impassioned supporters question whether Thunder, for all the wonderful nights and memories he has given us, is truly a great fighter.

Leading up to the bout, some critics expressed the opinion that should Gatti emerge as a three division world champion, he would have put himself 'over the top' and earned himself a spot in the hallowed halls of the International Boxing Hall of Fame Canastota, New York.

Assuming he retires from the ring in early 2007 at the latest, it will be 2013 before the Canadian born, slugger is eligible for enshrinement the pantheon of immortals at Canastota, New York.

However, while a farewell bout is under consideration, if Gatti is to get into Canastota, he'll probably need to do so on what he has already achieved in the sport.

The IBHoF's 'modern' inductees (boxers who have been retired for five or more years and whose last contest was no less recent than 1943) are voted in by the members of the Boxing Writers Association of America, plus several dozen other 'electors' chosen by the IBHoF's Board of Directors. Each year, a shortlist is drawn up by the IBHoF's small team of historians and the electors are invited mark their ballots according to their own judgements and criteria.

Most electors would probably agree that Gatti - currently 40-9 (31KOs) and a 15 year pro at least deserves consideration for induction. He has won two world titles in two different weight categories - super-featherweight and junior welterweight - beaten six men good enough to win a 'world' title during their careers and, of course, has featured in some of the most exciting bouts of his era.

But is this CV enough for Gatti to shoulder in between the likes of Robinson and Duran? I canvassed the views of the five members of the SecondsOut team - Thomas Hauser, Paul Upham, Randy Roberts, Matt Wells and myself - who are members of the Boxing Writers Association of America and, providing we remain members through 2012 or so, will asked to vote on Gatti.

Playing Devil's Advocate, I began by asking how a fighter who has been soundly beaten by Angel Manfredy, Ivan Robison (twice), Micky Ward and Carlos Baldomir and obliterated by sure-thing future Hall of Famers Oscar De La Hoya and Floyd Mayweather deserves to be enshrined in the IBHoF.

Paul Upham isn't convinced he does belong. SecondsOut's respected Australian based editor began: "What's Gatti most well known for? Probably the trilogy with Micky Ward, where he showed determination and heart above and beyond the call of duty. But, really, Ward was not a great fighter and yet he beat Gatti in the first fight and gave Gatti tough, tough nights in the next two bouts. It doesn't take anything away from those fights to say that Ward - and Gatti - do not have special talents as boxers."

Upham astutely points out the very name of the IBHoF institution is misleading. "It's called the International Boxing Hall of Fame," Upham said with emphasis. "And if it truly were an institution recognising the most famous boxers, Gatti would absolutely belong in it - he's very popular. But it is supposed to be a place celebrating the very best fighters, pound-for-pound, and I don't know that Gatti fits that criteria."

However, Upham adds: "But I'm a guy who likes to look at things from different perspectives and I can see that Gatti is a special fighter despite not having special technical talents. Maybe he is a special case as far as the Hall of Fame is concerned. What makes Gatti special is his heart, and all those 10,000s of people who pay to see him live and millions who watch him on TV all over the world can't all be wrong. There's a specialness about Gatti that goes beyond his actual skill level and accomplishments in the ring. I think a lot of (panelists) will want to find a reason to vote for him - and the fans will certainly want to see him in the Hall of Fame after all the wonderful hours of enjoyment he's given us.

"As for my vote, it will depend on who else is on the ballot next to Gatti. If there's no-one I feel more deserving on the ballot I'll vote for Gatti but, if there's more talented fighters on the list with more accomplishments then Gatti will have to get into the Hall of Fame without my vote."

As long ago as 1995, Thomas Hauser had grown concerned with the rate and ease in which fighters were entering the Hall of Fame. Today, Hauser's concerns that the Hall of Fame continues induct undeserving fighters at a breakneck rate are such that he refuses to vote.

He explained: "It is a protest against the fact that I feel there are so many unqualified electors and also way the IBHoF is watering down the standards for induction. It is a requirement that Canastota inducts fighters each and every year, and fighters are getting in on the basis of six or seven votes. Allowing competent or 'good' fighters into an institution supposedly set aside for great fighters only is like having four 'world champions' in each weight class - it diminishes the honor. The bar is now set so low that fighters who are not 'Hall of Fame' quality get in almost every year."

In his writings, Hauser has listed fighters like Ken Norton, Jeff Fenech, Pipino Cuevas, Victor Galindez, and Ingemar Johansson as fighters who, for all they achieved in boxing, stand shoulder high with Ali or Robinson in neither achievement nor boxing history.

Hauser said: "The question you have to ask is whether Gatti belongs in a credible Hall of Fame. To answer that first you look at his won/loss record, and he doesn't have a great won/loss record. Then you look at his record in his biggest fights, and he lost his biggest fights - against De La Hoya and Mayweather. Then you look to his longevity and, yes, Arturo's career has been reasonably long.

"But if you are going to argue Arturo belongs in a Hall of Fame, you really have to do so on the basis of the intangibles: he has given boxing some incredibly exciting moments, he fights with a great deal of pride, and he has competed against world class fighters with incredible courage and heart."

[Wacko3205]

Continued...


The IBHoF continues to exist on the strength of the business it does for and during it's annual induction weekend and, naturally, fans are more likely to travel to see the induction of living fighters than a procession of posthumous awards. So, the reality is that Canastota will continue with their current policy of inducting fighters year in, year out.

"I think the likelihood is that Arturo will be inducted into the Canastota Hall of Fame," Hauser said. "Regardless that he was knocked out by Baldomir there are those who believe that he already deserved recognition on the basis of the intangibles I mentioned. And, of course, Gatti hasn't retired yet. If he beats Ricky Hatton (a fight which may yet happen) he will enhance his chances just as if he fights again and displays an uncharacteristic lack of heart - who I don't think will happen - that would diminish his chances."

Likely to refuse to vote if and when Gatti's name appears on an IBHoF ballot, Hauser's opinion is academic here. However, unlike Hauser, Tim Smith does use his Hall of Fame vote.

But he won't be using it to vote Gatti.

Smith began: "I love Arturo Gatti. He's an exciting fighter, he's a courageous fighter and I just love him. But regardless of whether Arturo fights again, or regardless of whether he'd beaten Baldomir or not, he doesn't deserve inclusion in the Hall of Fame. He is a tremendous ticket-seller and TV draw, but that isn't and shouldn't be the criteria for getting in. While he's won world titles, he's never being the dominant fighter in any division and he's never beaten a top class world fighter.

"Going from being a title holder at 130 and then, years later, winning a title at 140lbs is an achievement but you have to look closely at the guys he took those titles off (Tracy Harris Patterson and Gianluca Branco)."

As Hauser noted, there is no definitive criteria for induction to the Canastota institution, voters are free to invent and use their own and be as stringent or as lax as they want. But candidates have to get by a particularly hardy criterion if they are to receive Smith's vote.

"The criteria I use before voting for anyone to be put in the Hall of Fame is 'Which (existing) Hall of Famer in the same division would I take out to make room'. To me, that's my criteria that I have in mind when I look at the names on the ballot each year. I also think 'Could this guy have beaten a Roberto Duran, or a Ray Robinson or a Ray Leonard' and I don't think you could argue that Arturo would have been competitive there."

However, Smith added: "Arturo won't get my vote but he may get in. And regardless of whether he does or doesn't, he'll be remembered as both a tremendous attraction and an incredibly exciting fighter."

Boxing historian Randy Roberts is similarly both a fan of 'Thunder', but still lukewarm to him entering the Hall of Fame. Roberts: "I really like Gatti, he's been one of the most exciting fighters in a long, long time but I just don't think he has a credential as a surefire Hall of Famer. The centerpiece of his career was the Ward trilogy; and splitting fights with a Micky Ward and losing to Ivan Robinson is not what you'd expect from a 'great' of the ring.

"But he has given everything of himself to boxing, and in terms of excitement and entertainment he has a case to being a Hall of Famer, similar to Carmen Basilio (former world welterweight and middleweight champ from the 50s who is actually from Canastota). But where Basilio had wins over a Ray Robinson and others it seems like when Gatti moved up in class to fight a really top level fighter he was outclassed. Even against a good boxer with skills like Ivan Robinson, he gets beat. It is very difficult to come up with any Hall of Fame level victories on Gatti's record."

Roberts added: "If we're going to admit fighters on the basis of blood and guts, fighting back with a broken hand, fighting with everything you've got, popularity, number of exciting fights, then Gatti belongs in. Gatti brings something special, and you have to recognize that. But if we take all of that out and just look at how 'great' of a fighter he has been, then, no, he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame."

"But," Roberts adds, "If he got in I won't mind one bit because I just love Arturo Gatti."

A newcomer to boxing writing ('discovered' by SecondsOut), Matt Wells is not yet a full member of the BWAA. However, the 29-year-old will be by the time Gatti is HoF eligible. And Wells has already more or less decided that his fellow Canadian deserves to be remembered as a great fighter.

"It's a tough question," Wells began. "But I think Gatti will get into the HoF, because so many fighters do. You know, a fight career is all about legacy. If you carve out a good one, you should get in. Gatti didn't put together a long title run like a lot of other top fighters, but he still put together so many memorable performances and that's worth remembering and celebrating, too.

"There are a lot of guys who win titles and defend them for a while, but don't really leave an impression all that much. The Mandfredy and Robinson losses were when Gatti was in his hard partying days. You know for sure Mike Tyson will get in, and Tyson did less than Gatti did. I know Tyson became undisputed champion, but his appeal is built so much on his style and the excitement factor, just like Gatti. You have just as hard a time naming three pivotal Tyson victories as I would Gatti victories."

Wells adds: "And Gatti has beaten good fighters. Ruelas and Patterson and Rodriguez weren't the pound-for-pound best challenges in the world, but Gatti did well to beat them."

At least Matt's nod gets Gatti on the scoreboard with the SecondsOut selectors.

Personally, I have mixed feelings regarding Gatti's HoF credentials and, like some of my colleagues, believe that 'Thunder' has unique credentials for inclusion. Gatti v Ward may have been, in the words of one particularly sharp penned critic, 'the Ali v Frazier of club fights' but the term 'Gatti/Ward' has become common coinage for fans to describe exciting bouts. To a great many fans, Gatti v Ward is as good as it gets those views shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

While sharing Tom Hauser's concerns regarding the hordes of borderline - at best - 'greats' who are already in the HoF, put simply, the boxers already enshrined in Canastota aren't coming back out. And, given that reality, I personally chose to adopt a 'bottom up' criteria as opposed to the more 'top down' criterion favoured by Hauser and Smith in particular.

When readers write in to SecondsOut's regular 'Ask the Editors' feature enquiring whether I believe Fighter X, Y or Z belongs in Canastota, my personal shorthand reference will forever be Barry McGuigan.

Ulsterman McGuigan was a fine featherweight in the mid-1980s, defeating the exceptional, if ageing, Eusebio Pedroza to annex the WBA title in 1985. McGuigan would make two successful defences against two decent contenders before getting knocked out by the average Steve Cruz, who promptly lost the belt in first defense and never held championship gold again.

And neither did McGuigan, who was hacked to bits and retired by Jim McDonnell three fights later. That is not a career comparable with Hopkins or De La Hoya - much less Louis, Robinson, Ali or Leonard - but that's exactly what is implied by McGuigan's 2004 enshrinement

And yet, perhaps because of his fine work in attempting to represent both the Protestant and Catholic Irish, perhaps because he became an outstanding boxing commentator in retirement, McGuigan was given a Hall of Fame ring in 2005.

Ask any fight fan outside of Ireland who was the better fighter, McGuigan or Gatti, and you'll probably get a funny look before hearing Thunder's name in the affirmative.

For me, if McGuigan is in, you can't leave Gatti out.

Finally, I would point out that history is something which is created everyday and in the rear-view mirror of nostalgia, everything is magnified. Boxing fans in 20, 50 and 100 years time will be watching footage of Arturo Gatti fights -of that I am sure.

And, when they do, they'll assume that Gatti is already in the Hall of Fame.

[frozensolid_702]

if evander holyfield gets in, then so should gatti

but for the record, i answered no

[TaxanBaller]

Nope No way. His courage was great. But that does not deserve to be in the hall of fame. He lost all of his big fights

[p4pking]

It doesn't matter, he will be in the HOF without question... He's famous, and brought ton's of excitement to the sport.

[ICB]

if evander holyfield gets in, then so should gatti

but for the record, i answered no

yes but holyfield was argueably the greatest cruiserweight of all time and he beat mike tyson beat riddick bowe and beat douglas who had just beaten tyson and was hw champion like 4 times wasnt he ??

[thgreatsd]

I would say that he is worthy of a place for all the excitement he has brought to the sport. He is a good ambassador for the sport and deserves his place for all the heart he has shown over the years.

[SigmaMu]

I also said no. He was all hype. Gatti was more like a cult figure in this sport but he was not great.

Your option # 2 defines it perfectly
"Nope. Gatti's most notible fights are his losses."

[OumaFan]

Nope

But he probably will. I understand the McGuigan argument, although Gatti never beat anybody like Pedroza, even a faded Pedroza, it probably is unfair to leave Gatti out if you put McGuigan in, but I'm not sure that instead of just using the McGuigan standard from here on out they shouldn't just cut their losses and return to a higher standard. But that is unfair I guess.

[El Gamo]

Agree with you guys,I don't think he should be in there but he has given us alot to remember so maybe for sentimental reasons? I know that should not be allowed but that's the onyl reason I can see him getting in/

[gyrokai]

It doesn't matter, he will be in the HOF without question... He's famous, and brought ton's of excitement to the sport.

Exactly, you guys are right. His losses are his notable fights.

We tried to give him Baldomir to give us an excuse to put him in the Hall of Fame, but since he got Knocked the F*** out in that fight, he can only go to the Hall of Fame based on his excitement.

Yes he doesn't deserve to go, but he'll go just based on the revenue, energy, excitement, and hype he brought to the sport.

[frozensolid_702]

if evander holyfield gets in, then so should gatti

but for the record, i answered no

yes but holyfield was argueably the greatest cruiserweight of all time and he beat mike tyson beat riddick bowe and beat douglas who had just beaten tyson and was hw champion like 4 times wasnt he ??

youre right about the cruiserweight holyfield

but he beat a waay washed up tyson (think ali vs berbick)

one out of 3 vs. bowe (a far superior hw)

was 1-1-1 against john ruiz

was 1-1 against michael moorer

lost to chris byrd

however, if he does go on to win a hw championship again, (he won't) then he absolutely deserves to be in the hof

tell me if this is hall of fame material............... http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=499

the only reason he was hw champ 4 times is because he wasnt successful defending his belt

[luvfightgame]

if evander holyfield gets in, then so should gatti

but for the record, i answered no

yes but holyfield was argueably the greatest cruiserweight of all time and he beat mike tyson beat riddick bowe and beat douglas who had just beaten tyson and was hw champion like 4 times wasnt he ??

youre right about the cruiserweight holyfield

but he beat a waay washed up tyson (think ali vs berbick)

one out of 3 vs. bowe (a far superior hw)

was 1-1-1 against john ruiz

was 1-1 against michael moorer

lost to chris byrd

however, if he does go on to win a hw championship again, (he won't) then he absolutely deserves to be in the hof

tell me if this is hall of fame material............... http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=499

the only reason he was hw champ 4 times is because he wasnt successful defending his belt

Holifield was supposed to be washed up also when he fought Tyson. And his fights vs Bowe were amazing, especially considering the size difference. As were the fights against Lennox. Holyfield is a shoo in. Ever heard the term "it's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game"

Gatti deserves to be there. It's a big beauty contest. You can't really measure talent, it's very subjective. Same with decisions, many famous fighters have gotten some questionable decisions, but that's how it goes. Gatti made a mark on boxing and look at how many fights of the year he's been in.

Would you rather watch a fight of the year, or some supremely talented guy dominate a handpicked opponent to increase the title defenses? Anyone who's been in that many amazing fights gets the nod in my book.

[Wacko3205]

This is a loaded question with loads of answers...but the one that I stick to is FWOCK NO!!!

Gatti's brought a lot of excitement...especially amongst his fans...but as a whole...Gatti's done nothing but lose to the best...that shouldn't make him a HOF'er...not in my book.

That's not what it was like back in the day...not from what I remember.

[DaxxKahn]

Of course he should...He has always been a respectible champion in and out of the ring and always conducted himself like a gentelman...Gatti has had fight of the year honors and showed us what true heart is about..There is nothing this guy has ever done to shame himself or the game...Even if he has lost his biggest fights he is a credit to the game....Just for you non supporters out there who talk about Gatti losing his biggest fights if the HOF has a spot for Non Champions the a two time belt holder with Gattis background is a shoe in.....