American confederate flag

[Kirkland Laing]

Well, once again you twisted it at the end with the state's right thing. Robert e Lee stuck with the Confederation as his state went so. Those soldiers were more loyal to the states and opposed a powerful central government thus wanting to form a confederate. We now what the flag meant during the war but the right guys won, imo and I look at the flag today as part of America's history, for better or worse. I see it as a tribute to all the young soldiers who died in the field, the ones who didn't write those words you quoted but rather were sent into battle by those guys. Slavery was an issue in the civil war, but most of the young guys, many teenagers who died on the field of battle were fighting for a belief that encompassed much more than the own slaves, they couldn't afford slaves anyway. The seeds of the civil war were planted long before Lincoln took office. Can I have a graph please brother.

I'm just quoting you what the actual leaders of the Confederacy had to say about why they started the war at the actual time. They all seem to think it was about slavery so I'm going to go with the guys who were there.

As for whether Confederate soldiers had any material interest in slavery. Slavery was the engine that powered the southern economy. It's like mining in Kentucky or businesses around a huge US military base. If the mine or the base closes then all the people that worked there lose their jobs and all the people who worked for the businesses where they spent their money go out of business too. So they were all fighting for their livelihoods and when they lost the south became impoverished for generations.

As those people passed through the trade, representing something close to half a billion dollars in property, they spread wealth wherever they went. Much of the capital that funded the traders' speculations had been borrowed from banks and had to be repaid with interest, and all of it had to be moved through commission-taking factorage houses and bills of exchange back and forth between the eastern seaboard and the emerging Southwest.
And the slaves in whose bodies that money congealed as it moved south had to be transported, housed, clothed, fed, and cared for during the one to three months it took to sell them. Some of them were insured in transit, some few others covered by life insurance. Their sales had to be notarized and their sellers taxed. Those hundreds of thousands of people were revenue to the cities and states where they were sold, and profits in the pockets of landlords, provisioners, physicians, and insurance agents long before they were sold. The most recent estimate of the size of this ancillary economy is 13.5 percent of the price per person-tens of millions of dollars over the course of the antebellum period.

The south still hasn't recovered economically from losing its slaves.

[El Kabong]

I see that Amazon.com has banned the Confederate flag....good for them, I don't need to see that symbol of hate while I'm buying my Che Guavera t-shirt, Mao bust, and copy of Mein Kampf!

[El Kabong]

January 1, 1863 the Emancipation freed 100% of the slaves in Confederate states, in 1864 Confederate states themselves were abandoning slavery.....in 1865 the Union banned slavery.


But the "Civil" War was about slavery you say? It certainly wasn't because that 75% of the United States' taxes came from the Southern states.......certainly wasn't about THAT. I mean people NEVER fight over taxes........(Revolution, Whiskey Rebellion, Maryland Bond protest 1843, California Foreign miners tax resistance of 1850, John McErny's shadow government 1872-1879, San Elizaro Salt War, "Half-Breeds" in the Dakota's 1889...amongst many others)

[Kirkland Laing]

January 1, 1863 the Emancipation freed 100% of the slaves in Confederate states, in 1864 Confederate states themselves were abandoning slavery.....in 1865 the Union banned slavery.


But the "Civil" War was about slavery you say? It certainly wasn't because that 75% of the United States' taxes came from the Southern states.......certainly wasn't about THAT. I mean people NEVER fight over taxes........(Revolution, Whiskey Rebellion, Maryland Bond protest 1843, California Foreign miners tax resistance of 1850, John McErny's shadow government 1872-1879, San Elizaro Salt War, "Half-Breeds" in the Dakota's 1889...amongst many others)

There were still slaves in the south up until June 1865 as some slaveowners only let their slaves go free when the Union army turned up and enforced it.

Lyle, the states went to war to defend slavery. They issued proclamations stating why they went to war and they only mention slavery, nothing about taxes or anything else. It's there in their own words. And they had absolutely no intention of ending slavery -- again, in their own words they wanted it to last in perpetuity.

Taxes weren't actually an issue because southern lawmakers had actually written the tariff of 1857 which set the nations tax levels. The rates were lower for the south than at any time since 1806.

[El Kabong]

Alrighty


#1 Slaves states fought FOR the Union....were they self loathing slave states?

#2 Slave states exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation: Maryland, Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware, Tennessee, and West Virginia. Why on Earth if slavery was such a blight on the nation AND reason for a horrible and destructive war, why would states be EXEMPTED from freeing slaves?

#3 Civil War 4/12/1861 to 6/22/1865....during which time period the Emancipation Proclamation occurred 1/1/1863...fighting continued...after the treaty was signed at Appomattox slavery was still in force. December 18, 1865 is when William H. Seward announced the adoption of the 13th Amendment to the Constitution. So the Civil War started and ended before slavery was abolished.

[Master]

I always watched Dukes of Hazzrard, mainly to see Daisy Duke, but always felt uncomfortable seeing General Lee with the confederate flag.

[Kirkland Laing]

Alrighty


#1 Slaves states fought FOR the Union....were they self loathing slave states?

#2 Slave states exempted from the Emancipation Proclamation: Maryland, Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware, Tennessee, and West Virginia. Why on Earth if slavery was such a blight on the nation AND reason for a horrible and destructive war, why would states be EXEMPTED from freeing slaves?

#3 Civil War 4/12/1861 to 6/22/1865....during which time period the Emancipation Proclamation occurred 1/1/1863...fighting continued...after the treaty was signed at Appomattox slavery was still in force. December 18, 1865 is when William H. Seward announced the adoption of the 13th Amendment to the Constitution. So the Civil War started and ended before slavery was abolished.

But....but....

A couple of posts previously you were claiming :

January 1, 1863 the Emancipation freed 100% of the slaves in Confederate states, in 1864 Confederate states themselves were abandoning slavery.....in 1865 the Union banned slavery.

And I'm saying that wasn't the case. So again you're making my argument for me. Well done Woti.

[Kirkland Laing]

Anybody who still thinks the Confederate states didn't start the civil war over slavery :

The Confederate Cause in the Words of Its Leaders - The Atlantic


And anybody who thinks white supremacy ended in the south in 1865 or that discrimination against black people ended in America even by 1965 read this, even if you just read the first bit about Clyde Ross.

The Case for Reparations - The Atlantic

[Beanflicker]

I see that Amazon.com has banned the Confederate flag....good for them, I don't need to see that symbol of hate while I'm buying my Che Guavera t-shirt, Mao bust, and copy of Mein Kampf!

Hmmm that's a pretty good point!

Che Guevera... what a shit head he was!

[El Kabong]

I see that Amazon.com has banned the Confederate flag....good for them, I don't need to see that symbol of hate while I'm buying my Che Guavera t-shirt, Mao bust, and copy of Mein Kampf!

Hmmm that's a pretty good point!

Che Guevera... what a shit head he was!

You can also buy swastika t-shirts, Stalin statuettes, books on eugenics, various serial killer knick knacks, and so on.....but THANK GOD that evil flag is gone

[TitoFan]

The U.S. has a flag, as does every other country in the world..... and the states have flags. Can't we leave it that and quit doing shit that is somehow offensive to other people? If you know it's going to be controversial and offensive to some.... why the f*ck do it? Don't we have enough real issues to deal with to also add this petty, unnecessary log to the fire?

I can see why Agent Smith wasn't too fond of humans in "The Matrix".

[El Kabong]

Offense is easily taken these days

[Gandalf]

For better or worse, freedom of expression and speech is paramount. That we seem to be doing away with it in the name of taste, political correctness, and control is a very sad thing. Everything is being dumbed down and nuance is being eradicated. A flag is a flag, get over it. Does it have history and connotations? Yep, but doesn't everything? I would like to ban fracking, but CNN rarely gives it the time of day. I guess there is little racial tension when it comes to destroying human habitat regardless of skin tone. It's funny how some things are so much more important than others.

[walrus]

Well, once again you twisted it at the end with the state's right thing. Robert e Lee stuck with the Confederation as his state went so. Those soldiers were more loyal to the states and opposed a powerful central government thus wanting to form a confederate. We now what the flag meant during the war but the right guys won, imo and I look at the flag today as part of America's history, for better or worse. I see it as a tribute to all the young soldiers who died in the field, the ones who didn't write those words you quoted but rather were sent into battle by those guys. Slavery was an issue in the civil war, but most of the young guys, many teenagers who died on the field of battle were fighting for a belief that encompassed much more than the own slaves, they couldn't afford slaves anyway. The seeds of the civil war were planted long before Lincoln took office. Can I have a graph please brother.

I'm just quoting you what the actual leaders of the Confederacy had to say about why they started the war at the actual time. They all seem to think it was about slavery so I'm going to go with the guys who were there.

As for whether Confederate soldiers had any material interest in slavery. Slavery was the engine that powered the southern economy. It's like mining in Kentucky or businesses around a huge US military base. If the mine or the base closes then all the people that worked there lose their jobs and all the people who worked for the businesses where they spent their money go out of business too. So they were all fighting for their livelihoods and when they lost the south became impoverished for generations.

As those people passed through the trade, representing something close to half a billion dollars in property, they spread wealth wherever they went. Much of the capital that funded the traders' speculations had been borrowed from banks and had to be repaid with interest, and all of it had to be moved through commission-taking factorage houses and bills of exchange back and forth between the eastern seaboard and the emerging Southwest.
And the slaves in whose bodies that money congealed as it moved south had to be transported, housed, clothed, fed, and cared for during the one to three months it took to sell them. Some of them were insured in transit, some few others covered by life insurance. Their sales had to be notarized and their sellers taxed. Those hundreds of thousands of people were revenue to the cities and states where they were sold, and profits in the pockets of landlords, provisioners, physicians, and insurance agents long before they were sold. The most recent estimate of the size of this ancillary economy is 13.5 percent of the price per person-tens of millions of dollars over the course of the antebellum period.

The south still hasn't recovered economically from losing its slaves.

Prior to the war Jefferson Davis wanted slavery banned in the southern states. His main gripe was about the federal government telling the state's what they can and can not do.