Prime RJJ's weaknesses.

[VG_Addict]

I've heard people say prime RJJ was one of the best fighters ever, and nearly unbeatable. But, did he have any weaknesses?

[Master]

He was like a prime Ali, technically not a perfect boxer who relied on his speed and reflex, but unbeatable boxer, courage, conditioning and skill.

[mikeeod]

Roy struggled with lanky boxers who worked effectively behind the jab. Watch his fights against Eric Harding and Antonio Tarver to see what I'm talking about. BHop gave Roy a tough fight by exposing some his weaknesses during their first fight, but was too green to capitalize and get the win. Roy was a great fighter who was likely the most gifted in history. He also fought the worst comp ever for an elite fighter between the Toney n Tarver fights (Ruiz was horrible).

[Andre]

So fit with the best of reflexes allowed him to relax completely and be even faster from looseness which allowed him to break the golden rule of balance and guard. There were no Barrera style warriors to expose him for it (like he did to Naz) up in that higher weight or at the right time within his prime.
His weakness was thinking his body would follow his mind into age. Range and reach with balance and working from behind a perfect jab would have had him rethinking clowning and leaping forwards on the oppositions spaces in timing or other openings. Hard to do when Roy fought on height levels as well as angles and didnt have a slow or bad day off in his prime.

[Spicoli]

Stubborn pride and borderline stupidity at this point lets be honest. Pretty much trumps the lack of basic defensive essentials early on

[IamInuit]

Roy struggled with lanky boxers who worked effectively behind the jab. Watch his fights against Eric Harding and Antonio Tarver to see what I'm talking about BHop gave Roy a tough fight by exposing some his weaknesses during their first fight,-Roy was a great fighter who was likely the most gifted in history. He also fought the worst comp ever for an elite fighter between the Toney n Tarver fights (Ruiz was horrible).

You're joking right? Its a testimony to how great he was that losing a round or two means a weakness has been exposed. Hopkins won at best 3 rounds against Roy and the "to green" urban legend that has managed to carry on over these many years needs to be buried. Hopkins turned pro before Roy did and had more fights when they met.

Secondly Roys dominance of his weight classes in his prime years 68/75 was better then anyone's that beat him and stands up to most people at or near that weight in history. He made everyone look pedestrian.....like most atg's do.

I'm sure from a trainers standpoint and based on the fundamentals used for fighters that are not him, he did everything wrong. That is what separates the greats from the all time greats. They do what others cannot. One can only imagine what he could have done late in his career had he used and developed his jab. It cant really be called a weakness though because he never needed it in his prime. That's how good he was. I don't think that can be said about any other ATG and its more likely then not that the others relied on it. The only time Roy ever showed that he really had a good one was against Pazienza.

Roy would have never gotten away with many of the things he did if he fought someone that could read and anticipate on the same level while possessing the same speed and reflexes he did. Nobody did though or has ever. His strengths were others weaknesses.

[Primo Carnera]

He was like a prime Ali, technically not a perfect boxer who relied on his speed and reflex, but unbeatable boxer, courage, conditioning and skill.

This Sums it up really. Incredible Speed and reflexes and a bit of spite as well . There are no perfect boxers, but if you have the above , they cover up any cracks.
The problem is that when you lose those qualities with time and age, you're fucked ! and that's why he is like he is now. The body can't do what the Brain wants it to do.

[mikeeod]

Roy struggled with lanky boxers who worked effectively behind the jab. Watch his fights against Eric Harding and Antonio Tarver to see what I'm talking about BHop gave Roy a tough fight by exposing some his weaknesses during their first fight,-Roy was a great fighter who was likely the most gifted in history. He also fought the worst comp ever for an elite fighter between the Toney n Tarver fights (Ruiz was horrible).

You're joking right? Its a testimony to how great he was that losing a round or two means a weakness has been exposed. Hopkins won at best 3 rounds against Roy and the "to green" urban legend that has managed to carry on over these many years needs to be buried. Hopkins turned pro before Roy did and had more fights when they met.

Secondly Roys dominance of his weight classes in his prime years 68/75 was better then anyone's that beat him and stands up to most people at or near that weight in history. He made everyone look pedestrian.....like most atg's do.

I'm sure from a trainers standpoint and based on the fundamentals used for fighters that are not him, he did everything wrong. That is what separates the greats from the all time greats. They do what others cannot. One can only imagine what he could have done late in his career had he used and developed his jab. It cant really be called a weakness though because he never needed it in his prime. That's how good he was. I don't think that can be said about any other ATG and its more likely then not that the others relied on it. The only time Roy ever showed that he really had a good one was against Pazienza.

Roy would have never gotten away with many of the things he did if he fought someone that could read and anticipate on the same level while possessing the same speed and reflexes he did. Nobody did though or has ever. His strengths were others weaknesses.

I usually agree with everything you write, but have to disagree with this post. First, Hopkins was no where near the fighter he became in 1999/2000 when he fought Roy in 1993. Even the Hop who fought Segundo Mercado twice was more puncher than the multi-faceted boxer who took Tito apart. Hop had a limited amateur career, and NEVER competed internationally like Roy did as an amateur, so even though Hop was older and a few more pro fights, he had no where near the depth or experience Roy had when they first met.

As for their first fight, Hop won 4 rounds in that fight, and made Roy uncomfortable in the later rounds, and really throughout. Roy deserved the win, for sure, but Hop pushed him and kept him tentative, especially once Hop settled down and gained confidence. The only urban legend associated with this fight, is that Hop won three rounds at best and that Roy walked all over him.

As for Roy barely losing rounds: look who he fought!!!! Horrible competition, maybe the worst ever by a guy with his potential. Vinny Paz?!!!!! There is a reason Roy avoided guys like Nunn and Lile, and struggled with Harding/Tarver when he fought them. Roy had great talent for sure, but he definitely had holes in his game, even during his prime.

[Master]

Roy struggled with lanky boxers who worked effectively behind the jab. Watch his fights against Eric Harding and Antonio Tarver to see what I'm talking about BHop gave Roy a tough fight by exposing some his weaknesses during their first fight,-Roy was a great fighter who was likely the most gifted in history. He also fought the worst comp ever for an elite fighter between the Toney n Tarver fights (Ruiz was horrible).

You're joking right? Its a testimony to how great he was that losing a round or two means a weakness has been exposed. Hopkins won at best 3 rounds against Roy and the "to green" urban legend that has managed to carry on over these many years needs to be buried. Hopkins turned pro before Roy did and had more fights when they met.

Secondly Roys dominance of his weight classes in his prime years 68/75 was better then anyone's that beat him and stands up to most people at or near that weight in history. He made everyone look pedestrian.....like most atg's do.

I'm sure from a trainers standpoint and based on the fundamentals used for fighters that are not him, he did everything wrong. That is what separates the greats from the all time greats. They do what others cannot. One can only imagine what he could have done late in his career had he used and developed his jab. It cant really be called a weakness though because he never needed it in his prime. That's how good he was. I don't think that can be said about any other ATG and its more likely then not that the others relied on it. The only time Roy ever showed that he really had a good one was against Pazienza.

Roy would have never gotten away with many of the things he did if he fought someone that could read and anticipate on the same level while possessing the same speed and reflexes he did. Nobody did though or has ever. His strengths were others weaknesses.

I usually agree with everything you write, but have to disagree with this post. First, Hopkins was no where near the fighter he became in 1999/2000 when he fought Roy in 1993. Even the Hop who fought Segundo Mercado twice was more puncher than the multi-faceted boxer who took Tito apart. Hop had a limited amateur career, and NEVER competed internationally like Roy did as an amateur, so even though Hop was older and a few more pro fights, he had no where near the depth or experience Roy had when they first met.

As for their first fight, Hop won 4 rounds in that fight, and made Roy uncomfortable in the later rounds, and really throughout. Roy deserved the win, for sure, but Hop pushed him and kept him tentative, especially once Hop settled down and gained confidence. The only urban legend associated with this fight, is that Hop won three rounds at best and that Roy walked all over him.

As for Roy barely losing rounds: look who he fought!!!! Horrible competition, maybe the worst ever by a guy with his potential. Vinny Paz?!!!!! There is a reason Roy avoided guys like Nunn and Lile, and struggled with Harding/Tarver when he fought them. Roy had great talent for sure, but he definitely had holes in his game, even during his prime.

Prime B Hop would not win more than 4 rounds against prime Roy.

Trust me if Roy wanted or had to move up gears he would have done against B Hop and even Toney.

[Yuzo]

when roy would throw a jab he would only throw it to the space in front of the head. it doesnt pass through slip space that way and that means that you cant counter it. you would have had to try to come forward to try force it to pass through your slip space to counter it and when you came roy would zap you on the way in with a right hand. that right hand had nothing on it. but it was quick. you had to think about it. roy would throw that right hand and come back with a clean up left hook a lot. now you have to treat every right hand coming at you like a right hand and a left hook and not just a right hand. now you're really thinking.

roy threw just about every counter in boxing. and he was good at it. you would have to know how to counter a counter. not many do. you have to use your punches to read the way a guy is moving and reacting against every part of your punch from the chest to the shoulder to the extension to the retraction. thats because when you punch you turn on different counters with the different parts of your punching motion. to create a counter to counter you have a show a guy the part of your punching motion that is turning on that counter and then counter it.

heres bennie briscoe throwing a jab at carlos monzon and creating a counter right uppercut and countering the counter that he just created with a right hand.



when you throw an uppercut your head stays center and it cant naturally preform a slipping motion. is there any way to counter a jab that wont cause you to run into a right hand when you throw it?

this is hard to do against roy. but there is one way that roy used to get hit a lot. when roy fought southpaws he would throw a check hook over a right jab. thats a punch that southpaws and guys that fight southpaws use a lot.



the thing is when you try to throw a check hook over a right jab you can get your check hook countered by a left hand. thats how roy got knocked down by lou del valle.



and that was how roy got knocked out by denis lebedev. theres not too many ways to hit roy. but thats one of them.

[Syntax Error]

I've heard people say prime RJJ was one of the best fighters ever, and nearly unbeatable. But, did he have any weaknesses?

His weakness was that his style would only be effective for as long as his body could accommodate the athleticism that he relied almost exclusively upon.

Once he started to slow down, we saw that Roy was extremely vulnerable & was not able to adapt to his declining skills, in the way that Muhammad Ali, for example did.

[Master]

At light heavy fighters like Foster and Spinks could beat him but below that weight can not see anyone.

[mikeeod]

Roy struggled with lanky boxers who worked effectively behind the jab. Watch his fights against Eric Harding and Antonio Tarver to see what I'm talking about BHop gave Roy a tough fight by exposing some his weaknesses during their first fight,-Roy was a great fighter who was likely the most gifted in history. He also fought the worst comp ever for an elite fighter between the Toney n Tarver fights (Ruiz was horrible).

You're joking right? Its a testimony to how great he was that losing a round or two means a weakness has been exposed. Hopkins won at best 3 rounds against Roy and the "to green" urban legend that has managed to carry on over these many years needs to be buried. Hopkins turned pro before Roy did and had more fights when they met.

Secondly Roys dominance of his weight classes in his prime years 68/75 was better then anyone's that beat him and stands up to most people at or near that weight in history. He made everyone look pedestrian.....like most atg's do.

I'm sure from a trainers standpoint and based on the fundamentals used for fighters that are not him, he did everything wrong. That is what separates the greats from the all time greats. They do what others cannot. One can only imagine what he could have done late in his career had he used and developed his jab. It cant really be called a weakness though because he never needed it in his prime. That's how good he was. I don't think that can be said about any other ATG and its more likely then not that the others relied on it. The only time Roy ever showed that he really had a good one was against Pazienza.

Roy would have never gotten away with many of the things he did if he fought someone that could read and anticipate on the same level while possessing the same speed and reflexes he did. Nobody did though or has ever. His strengths were others weaknesses.

I usually agree with everything you write, but have to disagree with this post. First, Hopkins was no where near the fighter he became in 1999/2000 when he fought Roy in 1993. Even the Hop who fought Segundo Mercado twice was more puncher than the multi-faceted boxer who took Tito apart. Hop had a limited amateur career, and NEVER competed internationally like Roy did as an amateur, so even though Hop was older and a few more pro fights, he had no where near the depth or experience Roy had when they first met.

As for their first fight, Hop won 4 rounds in that fight, and made Roy uncomfortable in the later rounds, and really throughout. Roy deserved the win, for sure, but Hop pushed him and kept him tentative, especially once Hop settled down and gained confidence. The only urban legend associated with this fight, is that Hop won three rounds at best and that Roy walked all over him.

As for Roy barely losing rounds: look who he fought!!!! Horrible competition, maybe the worst ever by a guy with his potential. Vinny Paz?!!!!! There is a reason Roy avoided guys like Nunn and Lile, and struggled with Harding/Tarver when he fought them. Roy had great talent for sure, but he definitely had holes in his game, even during his prime.

Prime B Hop would not win more than 4 rounds against prime Roy.

Trust me if Roy wanted or had to move up gears he would have done against B Hop and even Toney.

I disagree on prime Hop vs prime Roy. Would be a very difficult fight for both, and very close, but Hop morphed his style specifically to beat Roy in a rematch. Roy may have eked the win out, but I think prime Hop does enough mauling and dirty boxing to win.

Roy would and will always beat Toney. Horrible style match up for James. Roy had much faster feet and hands and would move enough, create enough angles, and stay busy enough to decision James every time. I don't see a chance for Roy to stop, or seriously hurt James, but he is an almost guarantee to decision Toney every time they meet.

[Spicoli]

I don't think Jones Jr. had the convenience or absolute control vs Hopkins that would lead you to believe he could have done more than what he did. It wasn't out of his nature to coast or carry others, even to the sound of some boos, but Hopkins that early on gave him a fight. I think his later style and discipline would see him do much better.

[Yuzo]

I'm sure from a trainers standpoint and based on the fundamentals used for fighters that are not him, he did everything wrong.

theres this boxing myth that roy did everything wrong. if roy did everything wrong then jimmy mclarnin did everything wrong. benny leonard did everything wrong. charley burley did everything wrong.

this narrative that roy breaks the rules of boxing or that he does things that have never been done before and only gets away with it because of athleticism is just flat out wrong.