Greats who fought in weak eras vs Good fighters who fought in great eras.

[Master]

Brilliant posting from both of you. Really put it into perspective Floyd at 95-4-2 would be very respectful. I would even like the guy. Maybe.

[Mr140]

I think people who beat the better names are on my list for atg higher then those who don't. I mean Spinks and Holyfeild could of stayed undefeated if they never moved up and had longer reigns but no way in hell thats be better then them jumping up and being hw champs. I love Hagler, Monzon, and few other guys who were long reigning champs but in the end they never moved up and really challenged themselves. Guys like Calzaghe and Hopkins fought in shit division for so long were the real challenge was above them in the end they made up for it but kinda played it safe for most of there careers. I mean guys like Leonard, Mayweather, Hearns, and so many more kept moving up to test them selves and Holyfeild and Spinks didn't need pound for pound they moved up and beat the hws.

[Master]

I think people who beat the better names are on my list for atg higher then those who don't. I mean Spinks and Holyfeild could of stayed undefeated if they never moved up and had longer reigns but no way in hell thats be better then them jumping up and being hw champs. I love Hagler, Monzon, and few other guys who were long reigning champs but in the end they never moved up and really challenged themselves. Guys like Calzaghe and Hopkins fought in shit division for so long were the real challenge was above them in the end they made up for it but kinda played it safe for most of there careers. I mean guys like Leonard, Mayweather, Hearns, and so many more kept moving up to test them selves and Holyfeild and Spinks didn't need pound for pound they moved up and beat the hws.

If there was more money for hagler to fight spinks than if he fought Duran or Hearns I am sure Marvalous would have gone up.

[IamInuit]

I think people who beat the better names are on my list for atg higher then those who don't. I mean Spinks and Holyfeild could of stayed undefeated if they never moved up and had longer reigns but no way in hell thats be better then them jumping up and being hw champs. I love Hagler, Monzon, and few other guys who were long reigning champs but in the end they never moved up and really challenged themselves. Guys like Calzaghe and Hopkins fought in shit division for so long were the real challenge was above them in the end they made up for it but kinda played it safe for most of there careers. I mean guys like Leonard, Mayweather, Hearns, and so many more kept moving up to test them selves and Holyfeild and Spinks didn't need pound for pound they moved up and beat the hws.

I think that’s true in many cases but its a flawed litmus test in others. Many either never got the chance like say a Burley or Marshall along with the rest of the Row and before them was the Langfords and Jeanette’s along with a host of others that died in obscurity. Others cashed in on name rec when those names had little left or not enough to compete. I responded to that thread about nics and commented on Wilde. Did Poncho Villa beat Jimmy Wilde really? No he didn’t. He beat the name. Wilde was most likely done 5 years earlier and when he lost to Herman it was evident. Wilde already had 150 fights and at least 300 more not registered and was inactive for 2 years prior to Villa. Poncho becomes the first Filipino world champion and today gets in most top 5 or even 3 lists of Atg Asian fighters mostly based on that win. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details.

In addition when you consider those "names" present today its almost laughable. Trinket collectors. Everybody knows who Thurman is. How come? What’s he done? These names are more manufactured today then at any other time in history. They have become product ads with broadcasters deciding who fights who and what hairstyles they wear. People posing off the backs of no hopers and becoming household names. Joe Gans crossing the usa by train the evening after a fight to scrap Langford the next day stands out to me more than anything most of these names today have done in their career.

You closed by suggesting these guys that moved up separates them from the pack and although I agree in part, the devil is also in the details here as well. Leonard and Floyd are 2 bad examples to use in an argument for separation or difference. They moved up because they were as great a duo of opportunists as they were fighters. Leonard did nothing at 154 and then waited out Hagler for 3 years and then in the minds of many, robbed him. When he challenged Lalonde Donny was the 175 champ and yet the invented a new weight division for Ray and got Lalonde to melt down to 168 to defend his 175 title.

Floyd jumped up sure but who did he fight, when did he fight them and under what circumstances? He never jumped up to fight anyone of note in their prime. In addition what’s more dominant, a person that stays put and dominates a division by unifying it while also taking all all comers or a person that jumped up in weight and collected a piece in several divisions at times using the path of least resistance?

If we scrutinized everyone the way [we] cherry pick those we securitize there would be very few all-time greats. In my opinion atg’s would be atgs in any era even those whom we have little or no footage for because if it holds true over the course of my life then there is no reason to believe that it would not have been true in the past. They could all adapt and would because they were and are all-time greats.

Very few great fighters had the greats to meet them.

[Mr140]

Leonard eye was knocked out of his head and they said he pretty much should not fight anymore. I would say Leonard eye being fucked and not fighting in the ring puts him at bigger disadvantage then Hagler do not get Leonard benefit also the massive injury he got and all rust in the world. Also there has been so many polls on here and other sights more times then not i see a Leonard win Hagler was not shot did not help he fought dumbest fight he could against Leonard. I got more respect people moving up and beating bigger guys Holyfeild, Hearns, Lenoard, Duran, Spinks and Jones did it. My whole point is guys moving up and proving they can beat better fighters they make the pound for pound list not matter Holyfeild and Spinks moved up won hw title they did not need if they were at the same weight they moved up and did it.

[Mr140]

Also after Hagler beat Duran and Hearns he could of made the move i am just saying no way in hell he was going fight Spinks. Spinks was making great money and i am sure fighting him would made hagler more money then guys he fought after Duran and Hearns.

[Spicoli]

Ricardo Lopez. Arguably one of the top technicians and skilled boxers to answer the bell but continually in the background. Definitely handcuffed more by a division not even recognized then but he did have a couple of options one division up.