Quote Originally Posted by Mr140 View Post
I think people who beat the better names are on my list for atg higher then those who don't. I mean Spinks and Holyfeild could of stayed undefeated if they never moved up and had longer reigns but no way in hell thats be better then them jumping up and being hw champs. I love Hagler, Monzon, and few other guys who were long reigning champs but in the end they never moved up and really challenged themselves. Guys like Calzaghe and Hopkins fought in shit division for so long were the real challenge was above them in the end they made up for it but kinda played it safe for most of there careers. I mean guys like Leonard, Mayweather, Hearns, and so many more kept moving up to test them selves and Holyfeild and Spinks didn't need pound for pound they moved up and beat the hws.
I think that’s true in many cases but its a flawed litmus test in others. Many either never got the chance like say a Burley or Marshall along with the rest of the Row and before them was the Langfords and Jeanette’s along with a host of others that died in obscurity. Others cashed in on name rec when those names had little left or not enough to compete. I responded to that thread about nics and commented on Wilde. Did Poncho Villa beat Jimmy Wilde really? No he didn’t. He beat the name. Wilde was most likely done 5 years earlier and when he lost to Herman it was evident. Wilde already had 150 fights and at least 300 more not registered and was inactive for 2 years prior to Villa. Poncho becomes the first Filipino world champion and today gets in most top 5 or even 3 lists of Atg Asian fighters mostly based on that win. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details.

In addition when you consider those "names" present today its almost laughable. Trinket collectors. Everybody knows who Thurman is. How come? What’s he done? These names are more manufactured today then at any other time in history. They have become product ads with broadcasters deciding who fights who and what hairstyles they wear. People posing off the backs of no hopers and becoming household names. Joe Gans crossing the usa by train the evening after a fight to scrap Langford the next day stands out to me more than anything most of these names today have done in their career.

You closed by suggesting these guys that moved up separates them from the pack and although I agree in part, the devil is also in the details here as well. Leonard and Floyd are 2 bad examples to use in an argument for separation or difference. They moved up because they were as great a duo of opportunists as they were fighters. Leonard did nothing at 154 and then waited out Hagler for 3 years and then in the minds of many, robbed him. When he challenged Lalonde Donny was the 175 champ and yet the invented a new weight division for Ray and got Lalonde to melt down to 168 to defend his 175 title.

Floyd jumped up sure but who did he fight, when did he fight them and under what circumstances? He never jumped up to fight anyone of note in their prime. In addition what’s more dominant, a person that stays put and dominates a division by unifying it while also taking all all comers or a person that jumped up in weight and collected a piece in several divisions at times using the path of least resistance?

If we scrutinized everyone the way [we] cherry pick those we securitize there would be very few all-time greats. In my opinion atg’s would be atgs in any era even those whom we have little or no footage for because if it holds true over the course of my life then there is no reason to believe that it would not have been true in the past. They could all adapt and would because they were and are all-time greats.

Very few great fighters had the greats to meet them.