ESPN rankings for past 25 years

[p4pking]

Roy easily beat Hopkins when they fought. How that doesn't count for more amongst some people has always baffled me. CLEARLY Roy should be higher, in anywhere near his best form he would have always beat Hopkins and anyone that Hopkins was capable of beating, it really shouldn't even be an argument.

Roy won one fight and Hop won one fight. You will say Roy was old when Hop beat him, I will say Hop was green when Roy beat him. Hop beat an undefeated Glen Johnson, and dominated Tarver (jumping two weight classes to do so). Hop fought and beat better competition over a longer period of time and was never destroyed like Roy was. You will say Roy lost his punch resistance by losing too much weight vs Tarver, I will counter by saying Roy was as fast and good as he ever was in the second Tarver fight, he just fought a guy who had the right punch for him.

Point is, I can see your case and why you would feel like you do about Roy, I just completely disagree with you because I value certain attributes/criteria differently. For anyone to say that either is CLEARLY the better fighter who should be ranked higher isn't being honest with themselves and is blinded by bias.

Roy was a better fighter at his best, than Hopkins was at his, that's all. I'm not arguing that he has the better record, but considering he convincingly beat Hopkins when they fought each other I consider it pretty elementary to rank him higher. To bring up the rematch as if that puts them square, and then talk about being honest with yourself, I can only assume is an attempt at irony?

Again, you're not being consistent in your argument. The Hop that Roy beat, just like the one who drew with Mercado, was nowhere near the complete boxer puncher who dismantled Tito Trinidad. Similarly, the Roy who Hop beat, was nowhere near the phenom who ran circles around James Toney. Neither beat the other at their best, and while I agree that Roy would cause anyone problems due to his athleticism and unorthodox style, I feel that Hop learned from Roy in the first fight and learned/evolved to a point where he could effectively fight a faster/more athletic opponent. I feel like Hop vs Roy during 2001-2004 time frame is 50/50.

Fair enough, we just disagree. I think with both men anywhere near their best(which is closer to the case in their first fight than the second, and more than you are making out IMO) we saw what happens. Hopkins was the first good opponent Roy really had as a pro either if I'm not mistaken, although obviously nobody knew how good he was/would become then. Hopkins prime is a tough thing to pin down. He went undefeated as a middleweight champ, but he also didn't have marquee opponents and he did struggle enough in some fights before fighting Tito and then nobody for a few years until Taylor, that was his only real stretch of anything near dominance. I also don't think he was naturally a smaller man than Roy Jones, and probably could have moved up to 168 or 75 much sooner than he did. Not knocking Hopkins at all and I'm a fan, I just think he gets a lot of credit for doing things at the age he did and therefore get's this benefit in hindsight. I think James Toney would have whipped his ass as well, if that fight ever happened.

[Mr140]

Roy easily beat Hopkins when they fought. How that doesn't count for more amongst some people has always baffled me. CLEARLY Roy should be higher, in anywhere near his best form he would have always beat Hopkins and anyone that Hopkins was capable of beating, it really shouldn't even be an argument.

Roy won one fight and Hop won one fight. You will say Roy was old when Hop beat him, I will say Hop was green when Roy beat him. Hop beat an undefeated Glen Johnson, and dominated Tarver (jumping two weight classes to do so). Hop fought and beat better competition over a longer period of time and was never destroyed like Roy was. You will say Roy lost his punch resistance by losing too much weight vs Tarver, I will counter by saying Roy was as fast and good as he ever was in the second Tarver fight, he just fought a guy who had the right punch for him.

Point is, I can see your case and why you would feel like you do about Roy, I just completely disagree with you because I value certain attributes/criteria differently. For anyone to say that either is CLEARLY the better fighter who should be ranked higher isn't being honest with themselves and is blinded by bias.

Roy was a better fighter at his best, than Hopkins was at his, that's all. I'm not arguing that he has the better record, but considering he convincingly beat Hopkins when they fought each other I consider it pretty elementary to rank him higher. To bring up the rematch as if that puts them square, and then talk about being honest with yourself, I can only assume is an attempt at irony?

Again, you're not being consistent in your argument. The Hop that Roy beat, just like the one who drew with Mercado, was nowhere near the complete boxer puncher who dismantled Tito Trinidad. Similarly, the Roy who Hop beat, was nowhere near the phenom who ran circles around James Toney. Neither beat the other at their best, and while I agree that Roy would cause anyone problems due to his athleticism and unorthodox style, I feel that Hop learned from Roy in the first fight and learned/evolved to a point where he could effectively fight a faster/more athletic opponent. I feel like Hop vs Roy during 2001-2004 time frame is 50/50.

Fair enough, we just disagree. I think with both men anywhere near their best(which is closer to the case in their first fight than the second, and more than you are making out IMO) we saw what happens. Hopkins was the first good opponent Roy really had as a pro either if I'm not mistaken, although obviously nobody knew how good he was/would become then. Hopkins prime is a tough thing to pin down. He went undefeated as a middleweight champ, but he also didn't have marquee opponents and he did struggle enough in some fights before fighting Tito and then nobody for a few years until Taylor, that was his only real stretch of anything near dominance. I also don't think he was naturally a smaller man than Roy Jones, and probably could have moved up to 168 or 75 much sooner than he did. Not knocking Hopkins at all and I'm a fan, I just think he gets a lot of credit for doing things at the age he did and therefore get's this benefit in hindsight. I think James Toney would have whipped his ass as well, if that fight ever happened.

I laugh at Tony whooping Hopkins a man who could not beat Griffin and lose to Thadzi is not whooping hop for love of god he could not clearly beat a 40 year old body snatcher. Tony most overrated fighter to walk planet earth thouse fights were all in the 90's as well not old.

[Master]

James Toney was brilliant when on form. Yes he struggled at times and I thought McCallum beat him but Toney was brilliant throwback who took on the best and was fearless.

[Mr140]

Yea but when people say that Tony would whoop Hops ass yet he could not beat Griffin both times was out done by him, lost to Thadiz and never clearly beat a fucking 40 plus body snatcher. His best wins are Nunn and Blade considering how high he rated by some that pretty lame top names. I always hear how he would destroy this guy or this guy but on resume is bunch of filler and few top wins. Tony is the most overrated fighter there has been and to say he whoop Hops ass is just plain funny.

[p4pking]

Toney was a lazy fucker, he clearly didn't take some fights seriously and had some bad showings for sure. I guess the reason I rate Roy over Hopkins so easily ties into the same thing, I think of who was the best fighter at their best rather than consistent or over a duration of time, just a personal bias.

EVERYONE struggled with the body snatcher though, he was still a way better opponent than Hopkins ever fought during his reign. As was Reggie Johnson, Michael Nunn, and maybe even Prince Charles Williams. Toney was a damn fine 160 pounder when he was on.

[Mr140]

Yea i am just saying in a real life situation there a great chance Tony fucks it up more so then Hopkins not saying Hopkins has beat wins ever either. Hopkins just never had that half ass ness Tony did and when it comes to them fighting you got factor it in. Tony came in the worse shape ever against fucking Roy for god sake same shit might happen with Hop. Tony is a atg but he was very beatable in his prime more so then Hopkins for me i just think be safer bet on hop in a close decision but who knows.

[Mr140]

Also what was the list for the boxers keep trying to see it on espn site but with out much luck. I think Roys getting torched so bad kinda makes him look more human not to mention the lhw divsion was pretty weak during his time and more fights did not happen with him then guys we say cherry pick today not all being his fault but we missed out on a lot of fights with Jones because of it. I think Lennox should be higher he was the most dominate hw and he avenged the knock outs which happens at hw pretty easy with there size.