Vernon Forrest

[wanderingfighter]

?

Because the opposite of something is the same. What you consider "crude" and "street fighting" can be considered skillful if you look at it from a specific way. There's an art to brawling after all, just as there's an art to outfighting. Usually most brawlers are great counter punchers. They are skilled at landing one punch counters carrying their body weight, and Mayorga was not just any brawler. Let's be clear here, he was a world champion at one point. You don't get to that point by being crude and of low skill. A crude street fighter wouldn't have the right type of muscle memory, stamina, chin and counter punching ability to get the level he did.

I believe that there's skill to every single style. I think the main problem here is that the audience of this sport believes that "skills" inside of the ring can only come in one package. Once upon a time brawlers and inside fighters and even excessive clinchers were considered skillful.

When it comes to the fight itself...

I think that unfortunately for Forrest, Mayorga's favorite punch is the overhand right. This is a punch that Forrest's muscle memory wasn't trained for. It's that simple to be honest with you. When we fight we can't really think in there, your body is for the most part working on the data that's stored in it. The repetitions on the pads, mitts, etc is what pretty much comes out. For whatever reason he just couldn't deal with that punch and Mayorga found openings to land single counters with it often. Also for some psychological reason that I can't explain. Tall fighters are usually susceptible to that punch. This is a good article on the use of the overhand in striking: Roy Nelson: The Art of a Hundred Overhands | FIGHTLAND

You feel that after decades in the sport, and amateur success that saw him make the olympic team, Vernon hadn't ever seen a right hand before?!?!? Have to say I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. Brawling doesn't take skill, you use it to negate superior skill. Mayorga wasn't clever at all, and other than Forrest, maybe Andrew Lewis, and possibly Cory Spinks (if you give Mayorga that fight), Ricardo didn't beat any world class fighters (Vargas was a completely shot fighter when they fought).

Inside fighting is different than throwing haymakers and being overly aggressive. JC Superstar, Jose Luis Castillo, and Duran are all examples of skillful inside fighters. They fought rough on the inside, but they never neglected defense and always had a method to their madness. Look at Mayorga vs Oscar and Tito. Talk about a chasm in technique and skills, those two humiliated him. Vernon was on their level, so he should've never lost to a crude fighter like Mayorga, but overconfidence and hubris caught Up with him.

The question, again, is whether others feel Vernon was hyped, or if the overconfidence, shoulder injury, or mental aspects got the best of him. Appreciate your input, just think we view things much differently and will have to agree to disagree.

I just re-watched that first fight and for whatever reason that right was landing at will. We can probably say that Forrest took Mayorga lightly, he was supposed to be an opponent to showcase Forrest on his first fight on that new HBO contract. But I'm not sure. I don't think Forrest was undisciplined enough to take anyone lightly.

Is possible that the combination of Mayorga's aggressiveness, cleverness and explosiveness, and will to win on both of those nights made his right hand unlike anything else Forrest had seen at that point. To be a good brawler you need to have the right combination of intangibles. And for a short period Mayorga had those intangibles.

The skill in brawling at the high levels is highly dependent on conditioning and your will to get the outcome that you want. These type of fighters have a short period of success since their fighting skill is not based on scientific boxing so their process cannot be replicated easily. I think that by the point Mayorga fought Oscar and Tito he was a different fighter. A more financially stable one and we can probably say that comfortability results into relaxed training environment which reduces the brawler's most important skills which are all in his psyche, conditioning and how he approaches each fight.

From being around gyms for the last 10 years I can tell you right now that I believe that the successful brawler wins before the fight even starts. This is the reason why I love seeing these brawler vs boxer boxing matches. There's a certain beauty to the clash of these styles if the brawler is peaking at the right time, because for the brawler each fight is the equivalent of climbing a mountain. The most simple response to your question is that Mayorga was ready to either die or get over that mountain and that's why Forrest lost. He just met a fighter with a stronger will than him that night.