The Myth of the British National Health Servi

[Beanz]

When the NHS was formed in 1948, it was one of the greatest social achievements of any nation in the history of humanity. Setting up a healthcare system, for all citizens, free at the point of delivery was superb. The fact it was set up under an overarching set of Guiding Principles also illustrated the morality and aspiration of the scheme.

Britain in 1948 was a very different place to today. The country was nearly bankrupt following the war, the Empire was dissolving and malnutrition and life threatening sickness were rife. Average life expectancy for men was 66, the greatest issues were pneumonia, meningitis, polio and child mortality. This was the first time in the world that such a system has been set up.

fast forward nearly 70 years and things are very different;

Life expectancy is well over 70 now, and there has been a massive increase in palliative and complex treatments. These are much more expensive and time consuming than 'simply' curing the previous diseases which people suffered from.

our ageing population means we have already passed the mathematical point in time when working people (who pay tax to fund the system) have been outnumbered by non-working or retired people who no longer pay anything in. It is not relevant to say that they have already paid in for their working lifetimes because the system is not a 'bankable' one. In other words, money goes in every year and money goes out every year .... people do not build a fund of monies for treatment

It is a public point of grievance that non U.K. Citizens, foreigners and refugees etc are able to access the system equally despite having never paid anything towards it. Nobody really knows how many of these do so.

This means that it is essentially impossible to adequately budget for the services, nobody really knows how much next year will cost, nor where the pinch points will be in the service.

it is a fact that the Service has moved away from simply treating life threatening illnesses, which is what it was intended to do, towards palliative and lifestyle issues; dementia, Alzheimer's, smoking and alcohol related issues, obesity etc. It was not meant for that. Even today, the NHS is superb at dealing with emergencies, but not so good at non-emergencies.

Worst of all, the NHS has become a political football. The public and media 'love' the NHS, it is 'the best health service in the world', the 'envy of other countries', it is 'precious', everybody who works in the NHS is a 'hard working angel'. The media and politicians always trumpet they will 'save the NHS', or its 'in crisis' at an existential humanitarian level.

having personally worked on the fringes of the service for 20 years, and my wife has worked within it for 25, I can confidently say that therefore as many lazy good for nothing tossers working there as in any other big organisation. The leadership is sorely lacking, and the system is institutionally set up to resist change and innovation. Being run by the government really is a fate worth than death too.

Final salary pensions are pretty extinct now, because of black and white maths and also various government robberies of funds. Longevity and an imbalance in age demographics means they are financially simply unsustainable. Surely the same logic remorselessly applies to the NHS too?

Currently, we have a system that was fit for purpose in 1948. Now it's badly led, it's doing things it wasn't intended to do, it is simply too big and cumbersome to manage properly, it is very inefficient .... but it has become a 'holy grail' in the minds of the media, politicians and the public.

where to go?

Principles do not stop being sound because it is no longer 1948. You are right that it has become a political football but is is also an institution that people right across the political spectrum actually care about preserving. The fact that successive governments have undermined it's efficiency in order to cook the books and provide sweetners for companies their daddies own or whom will have them on the board after retiring from politics does not help matters. So much money could be saved if the rot did not start at the top. It's a kind of inverted craziness that the populace has taken to blaming everyone but the people who were elected to manage and plan for a future that they seem happy to wantonly destroy in order to make a political point. It is an ideological kind of war that feeds the fats cats. It is and always has been a class war. So the peasants dragged into factories despite being quite happy being self sufficient are now enslaved by private contractors who have replaced the former Lord of the Manor with Some toff who inherited the directorship. Breaking the service apart is a microcosm of the selfish attitude that the Tories have and New Labour tried to ape under Blair. It is now seen as a weakness and stupid idea to even think about things like social justice because the corporate mindset has now poisoned things so much that people living longer rather being seen as a triumph of the NHS is now seen as 'forcing people to live longer'

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co...cking-our.html

[brocktonblockbust]

1st off, as a one off, Beanz is right to now be addressing me as The Brock. Not Brock. He has learned to address me in a royal manner, as I do so well deserve to be, as I have utterly earned it by my gracious and magnanimous character, demeanor and disposition, and that is without even mentioning my sanctimonious persona, or my merciful.reluctance to.resort to cruelty, malice, or meanness.

Now then, as grateful as Beanz clearly and most justifiably is to the NHS for the family reasons he has provided here--and that goes without saying that, in all honesty (and not without the least bit of sincerity) every single one of us would WITHOUT QUESTION feel in equal measure precisely that gratefulness he expressed above were WE to have been the beneficiaries of that service he was provided--it is also noteworthy that even in the poorest of countries (the UK not falling within that category, at least not before 2030 anyway) there is indeed (as amazing as it may seem to some westerners) an actually surprisingly adequate and well-equipped health care system.which delays.rather well if I may say so myself with similar urgent health.matters, rendering the argument that the NHS is any kind.of unique godsend etc. quite null and.void, to say the very least.

[Beanz]

1st off, as a one off, Beanz is right to now be addressing me as The Brock. Not Brock. He has learned to address me in a royal manner, as I do so well deserve to be, as I have utterly earned it by my gracious and magnanimous character, demeanor and disposition, and that is without even mentioning my sanctimonious persona, or my merciful.reluctance to.resort to cruelty, malice, or meanness.

Now then, as grateful as Beanz clearly and most justifiably is to the NHS for the family reasons he has provided here--and that goes without saying that, in all honesty (and not without the least bit of sincerity) every single one of us would WITHOUT QUESTION feel in equal measure precisely that gratefulness he expressed above were WE to have been the beneficiaries of that service he was provided--it is also noteworthy that even in the poorest of countries (the UK not falling within that category, at least not before 2030 anyway) there is indeed (as amazing as it may seem to some westerners) an actually surprisingly adequate and well-equipped health care system.which delays.rather well if I may say so myself with similar urgent health.matters, rendering the argument that the NHS is any kind.of unique godsend etc. quite null and.void, to say the very least.

Nowhere else would she have been operated on so quickly by one of the top neurosurgeons in the country with our limited financial resources. That alone makes the NHS much more than the piss that you label it as. The NHS is unique. Just because you do not understand or appreciate that does not make it not so.

[brocktonblockbust]

1st off, as a one off, Beanz is right to now be addressing me as The Brock. Not Brock. He has learned to address me in a royal manner, as I do so well deserve to be, as I have utterly earned it by my gracious and magnanimous character, demeanor and disposition, and that is without even mentioning my sanctimonious persona, or my merciful.reluctance to.resort to cruelty, malice, or meanness.

Now then, as grateful as Beanz clearly and most justifiably is to the NHS for the family reasons he has provided here--and that goes without saying that, in all honesty (and not without the least bit of sincerity) every single one of us would WITHOUT QUESTION feel in equal measure precisely that gratefulness he expressed above were WE to have been the beneficiaries of that service he was provided--it is also noteworthy that even in the poorest of countries (the UK not falling within that category, at least not before 2030 anyway) there is indeed (as amazing as it may seem to some westerners) an actually surprisingly adequate and well-equipped health care system.which delays.rather well if I may say so myself with similar urgent health.matters, rendering the argument that the NHS is any kind.of unique godsend etc. quite null and.void, to say the very least.

Nowhere else would she have been operated on so quickly by one of the top neurosurgeons in the country with our limited financial resources. That alone makes the NHS much more than the piss that you label it as. The NHS is unique. Just because you do not understand or appreciate that does not make it not so.

I do not expect that you compared the speed with which they attended to your families urgent needs with the potential speed of other systems around the world, and you'd be surprised how quickly Singapore, Taiwan, Brunei, UAE or even Canada's systems may have responded in equally speedy measure.

[Beanz]

1st off, as a one off, Beanz is right to now be addressing me as The Brock. Not Brock. He has learned to address me in a royal manner, as I do so well deserve to be, as I have utterly earned it by my gracious and magnanimous character, demeanor and disposition, and that is without even mentioning my sanctimonious persona, or my merciful.reluctance to.resort to cruelty, malice, or meanness.

Now then, as grateful as Beanz clearly and most justifiably is to the NHS for the family reasons he has provided here--and that goes without saying that, in all honesty (and not without the least bit of sincerity) every single one of us would WITHOUT QUESTION feel in equal measure precisely that gratefulness he expressed above were WE to have been the beneficiaries of that service he was provided--it is also noteworthy that even in the poorest of countries (the UK not falling within that category, at least not before 2030 anyway) there is indeed (as amazing as it may seem to some westerners) an actually surprisingly adequate and well-equipped health care system.which delays.rather well if I may say so myself with similar urgent health.matters, rendering the argument that the NHS is any kind.of unique godsend etc. quite null and.void, to say the very least.

Nowhere else would she have been operated on so quickly by one of the top neurosurgeons in the country with our limited financial resources. That alone makes the NHS much more than the piss that you label it as. The NHS is unique. Just because you do not understand or appreciate that does not make it not so.

I do not expect that you compared the speed with which they attended to your families urgent needs with the potential speed of other systems around the world, and you'd be surprised how quickly Singapore, Taiwan, Brunei, UAE or even Canada's systems may have responded in equally speedy measure.

Do not expect -potential- may have- none of these are anything but supposition so your entire post is meaningless. You do this a lot you just dribble out stuff and pretend that it is debate. I am talking about real life experience of a NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE being able to utilise the best person for the Job in the place he was needed at that time. You are pretending that not having to fill out a mountain of forms or travel to find the right neurosurgeon or hospital like we would have elsewhere is irelevant because then you can justify the following stupid statement.

The NHS is piss. Tell us more how is the NHS piss. That from you personal experience? Something you read? Something you want to be true?

It's weird it seems that a few americans don't really give a f**k about many things and are quite offended or nonplussed when others do.

[Gandalf]

Health care is a human right and should be free at the point of use for all. I remember as a teenager going to hospital and the doctor right there and then said they could operate. I procrastinated and never did the surgery, but now if I wanted to do that it would cost me about 8,000 pounds out here. I wish I did do it then and missed a great opportunity. The UK in that respect is great. However, the last time I went to a doctor they tried referring me to a private clinic for something that could have been easily handled without going private. I saw that as a sign that things were changing there.

What the politicians have done to the health care system is criminal and at the same time they reduce corporation taxes and continue to allow the rich to avoid paying any taxes. The shortfall could easily come from that and instead they purposely hand contracts to their friends. It is criminal and that is how they think. The rich must get richer and the price worth paying is the collapse of the NHS.

[brocktonblockbust]

Nonplussed come.on, B. I'm never nonplussed plus you suck at math. NHS is piss because patients have to 'self diagnose' and then go to the doctor for unknown conditions. NHS is only good for known conditions. Nonplus, NHS has been very selective about who gets the "best treatment". If you went private you'd certainly get less cancellations as well. Doctors have zero training on new, rare diseases.

[Gandalf]

Nonplussed come.on, B. I'm never nonplussed plus you suck at math. NHS is piss because patients have to 'self diagnose' and then go to the doctor for unknown conditions. NHS is only good for known conditions. Nonplus, NHS has been very selective about who gets the "best treatment". If you went private you'd certainly get less cancellations as well. Doctors have zero training on new, rare diseases.

Why should people be forced to turn to private health care when health care is a human right? The money to pay for the system is there, but instead you would rather the super rich not pay their share of tax which is what has happened. Then the same elite get health contracts on the cheap and lo and behold they get even richer and ordinary people lose out even more. 'Tax them for it' cry the masses, 'Give us back our health care!'. 'No' says Brock, 'They worked hard for that money and it is their right to park the profits in an offshore tax haven'.

[Beanz]

Nonplussed come.on, B. I'm never nonplussed plus you suck at math. NHS is piss because patients have to 'self diagnose' and then go to the doctor for unknown conditions. NHS is only good for known conditions. Nonplus, NHS has been very selective about who gets the "best treatment". If you went private you'd certainly get less cancellations as well. Doctors have zero training on new, rare diseases.

This is all complete bollocks. Typical arrogance from someone who despite having never used the service pretends that they are some kind of authority. You don't have to self diagnose at all, what do you think examinations, scans etc are for? Idiot.The whole point of the NHS is that it is not selective about who gets the best treatment. The idea that doctors have zero training on new rare diseases Is also just complete fabrication from you. You just make stuff up. Why? Seriously what does it matter to you that the NHS is so loved in a country you look down your nose at?

[Fenster]

I've just spent nearly two months in hospital so have current first-hand experience of the good and bad. I waited 14 hours to get a bed on a ward, but in my experience, considering the daily pressure nurses/staff are under, the actual care was excellent - the majority are competent at their job (which I guess should be the expected average), with every Nurse Ratched there were half-a-dozen angels.

Can't believe how many people live in their own filth (before being forced to clean), shit and piss themselves and refuse to speak english (the last point is not linked to the others). And the amount that have the cheek to demand a special/particular menu. And get physical/abusive with the nurses (always female nurses). And should be in a mental home. And are fucking time wasters (some poor souls definitely/obviously enjoyed living in the hospital more than outside).

A shout out to the young Filipino nurses - several on my ward - who were the most excellent/dedicated/caring/upbeat lovely people i've ever came across. An eye opener for anyone that believes all immigration is a wrongun.

[El Kabong]

I've just spent nearly two months in hospital so have current first-hand experience of the good and bad. I waited 14 hours to get a bed on a ward, but in my experience, considering the daily pressure nurses/staff are under, the actual care was excellent - the majority are competent at their job (which I guess should be the expected average), with every Nurse Ratched there were half-a-dozen angels.

Can't believe how many people live in their own filth (before being forced to clean), shit and piss themselves and refuse to speak english (the last point is not linked to the others). And the amount that have the cheek to demand a special/particular menu. And get physical/abusive with the nurses (always female nurses). And should be in a mental home. And are fucking time wasters (some poor souls definitely/obviously enjoyed living in the hospital more than outside).

A shout out to the young Filipino nurses - several on my ward - who were the most excellent/dedicated/caring/upbeat lovely people i've ever came across. An eye opener for anyone that believes all immigration is a wrongun.

I hate that you have been ill Fenster, many well wishes to you and for your speedy recovery.


The problem with a social safety net of any kind is IMMIGRATION especially ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. You have people who do not and have not paid into the system, they have no skin in the game but demand the same rights. Of course under the Hippocratic oath it is the duty of any and all doctors and nurses to provide care for their fellow human beings regardless of their ability to be paid for such services. This then becomes a moral quandary much like "If you need medicine and the medicine is more than you can afford is it immoral for you to steal the medicine if that is the only means by which you can survive"

[Dia bando]

I've just spent nearly two months in hospital so have current first-hand experience of the good and bad. I waited 14 hours to get a bed on a ward, but in my experience, considering the daily pressure nurses/staff are under, the actual care was excellent - the majority are competent at their job (which I guess should be the expected average), with every Nurse Ratched there were half-a-dozen angels.

Can't believe how many people live in their own filth (before being forced to clean), shit and piss themselves and refuse to speak english (the last point is not linked to the others). And the amount that have the cheek to demand a special/particular menu. And get physical/abusive with the nurses (always female nurses). And should be in a mental home. And are fucking time wasters (some poor souls definitely/obviously enjoyed living in the hospital more than outside).

A shout out to the young Filipino nurses - several on my ward - who were the most excellent/dedicated/caring/upbeat lovely people i've ever came across. An eye opener for anyone that believes all immigration is a wrongun.

Hell that's were you been hope your on the road to recovery.
I hope you were a good patient any how glad your back Rich.

[Beanz]

I've just spent nearly two months in hospital so have current first-hand experience of the good and bad. I waited 14 hours to get a bed on a ward, but in my experience, considering the daily pressure nurses/staff are under, the actual care was excellent - the majority are competent at their job (which I guess should be the expected average), with every Nurse Ratched there were half-a-dozen angels.

Can't believe how many people live in their own filth (before being forced to clean), shit and piss themselves and refuse to speak english (the last point is not linked to the others). And the amount that have the cheek to demand a special/particular menu. And get physical/abusive with the nurses (always female nurses). And should be in a mental home. And are fucking time wasters (some poor souls definitely/obviously enjoyed living in the hospital more than outside).

A shout out to the young Filipino nurses - several on my ward - who were the most excellent/dedicated/caring/upbeat lovely people i've ever came across. An eye opener for anyone that believes all immigration is a wrongun.

Great to see you back mate. Don't want to rush you or anything you recovering and all that, but I am still awaiting my poster.

[brocktonblockbust]

I've just spent nearly two months in hospital so have current first-hand experience of the good and bad. I waited 14 hours to get a bed on a ward, but in my experience, considering the daily pressure nurses/staff are under, the actual care was excellent - the majority are competent at their job (which I guess should be the expected average), with every Nurse Ratched there were half-a-dozen angels.

Can't believe how many people live in their own filth (before being forced to clean), shit and piss themselves and refuse to speak english (the last point is not linked to the others). And the amount that have the cheek to demand a special/particular menu. And get physical/abusive with the nurses (always female nurses). And should be in a mental home. And are fucking time wasters (some poor souls definitely/obviously enjoyed living in the hospital more than outside).

A shout out to the young Filipino nurses - several on my ward - who were the most excellent/dedicated/caring/upbeat lovely people i've ever came across. An eye opener for anyone that believes all immigration is a wrongun.

@Fenster first off good to hear you are out and recovering. You are absolutely right here in New York City Filipino nurses are known to be the best of the best everybody wants to get a Filipino nurse they are fast and smart and highly educated and they work overtime and never get tired glad to hear they are also spreading their great reputation over in your country too

[Kirkland Laing]

I've just spent nearly two months in hospital so have current first-hand experience of the good and bad. I waited 14 hours to get a bed on a ward, but in my experience, considering the daily pressure nurses/staff are under, the actual care was excellent - the majority are competent at their job (which I guess should be the expected average), with every Nurse Ratched there were half-a-dozen angels.

Can't believe how many people live in their own filth (before being forced to clean), shit and piss themselves and refuse to speak english (the last point is not linked to the others). And the amount that have the cheek to demand a special/particular menu. And get physical/abusive with the nurses (always female nurses). And should be in a mental home. And are fucking time wasters (some poor souls definitely/obviously enjoyed living in the hospital more than outside).

A shout out to the young Filipino nurses - several on my ward - who were the most excellent/dedicated/caring/upbeat lovely people i've ever came across. An eye opener for anyone that believes all immigration is a wrongun.

Hope everything is OK mate.