Creation vs Evolution

[X]

I find it hard to reconcile the childish religious image we have of a kind and just God with the reality of the world around us. I find it simplistic to think that there is a Good one (God) and a Bad one (Satan). Religious mumbo jumbo is responsible for so much pain and suffering now and in the past.

The Churches are pretty evil - 'only I can communicate with your god, and only through me will you get everlasting life (!). Therefore I will set myself up and this will be my job, for which you will pay me money and I will tell you how to live your life. Also, only our way is right and everyone else is wrong and must be either converted to our way of thinking or they are an enemy' Stone Age stuff.

Why do humans always think they are the 'chosen ones'? If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of different species out there. Yet God made us 'in His image'. I don't think so. All cultures have a creation and religious myth, so therefore it is likely that 'aliens' would have as well - until they simply grow out of it of course.

The Bible was written by people with a vested interest in it, they were primitive societies (yes, even Rome). many of the stories are allegorical and people who believe that this could possibly be the literal truth sound misguided to me.

Creationism being told as part of the national curriculum now in some States in the US? (except they have rebranded it 'intelligent design' ........ shocking.

[Fenster]

A literal interpretation of the bible? So you cant pick and choose your bits, right?

Personally i couldn't care less what people believe but please explain Noah's ark the 50,000 species of animal, 1 million species of insects....and the DINOSAURS all living together for over 6 months?

luvfightgame is correct, this is a question outside the realms of science.

There is no scientific evidence that can prove one way or the other specific details of a man building an ark.

You dont have to explain it

Noah's ark. million species. Dinosaurs.

Yes or no?

Noah's ark-yes
millions of species-not millions
dinosaurs- yes

It doesn't need a seperate thread

If you want to explain how this could of happened

i'm all ears

Ok,

It took approximately 120 years to build the ark.

It didn't require fish, insects, nor every variety of species. It only required 1 "kind" therefore a single dog breed would suffice. Same for each other "kind".

He took baby dinosaurs.

Oh of course, "kinds" and little baby dinosaurs, it makes sense now...Kent Hovind fan?

To believe that the ark story actually happened, you must really NEED to believe, for some reason



By the way Bilbo

Ica stones - http://skepdic.com/icastones.html

Yup i'm a Hovind fan. I enjoyed watching him thoroughly embarass the "experts" he debated. As far as "need", to believe.... You will come to the same conclusion, you obviously want to believe that everything can happen by accident.

Books have authors, buildings have builders, expecting something more complex than a book to have happened by random chance is crazy. A lot crazier than believing a story about a boat and a bunch of animals. Besides you can't prove it DIDN'T happen, I can prove evolution DIDN'T happen.

I never stated anything I believe in

I guess you should know I'm a pastafarian http://www.venganza.org/

In the name of the Great Noodlyness, Ramen.

[luvfightgame]

I find it hard to reconcile the childish religious image we have of a kind and just God with the reality of the world around us. I find it simplistic to think that there is a Good one (God) and a Bad one (Satan). Religious mumbo jumbo is responsible for so much pain and suffering now and in the past.

The Churches are pretty evil - 'only I can communicate with your god, and only through me will you get everlasting life (!). Therefore I will set myself up and this will be my job, for which you will pay me money and I will tell you how to live your life. Also, only our way is right and everyone else is wrong and must be either converted to our way of thinking or they are an enemy' Stone Age stuff.

Why do humans always think they are the 'chosen ones'? If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of different species out there. Yet God made us 'in His image'. I don't think so. All cultures have a creation and religious myth, so therefore it is likely that 'aliens' would have as well - until they simply grow out of it of course.

The Bible was written by people with a vested interest in it, they were primitive societies (yes, even Rome). many of the stories are allegorical and people who believe that this could possibly be the literal truth sound misguided to me.

Creationism being told as part of the national curriculum now in some States in the US? (except they have rebranded it 'intelligent design' ........ shocking.

Do you really want to address those questions or are you just giving your opinion? Your statement that many of the stories are allegorical, which ones? And how do you know? By the way EVERYTHING is written by someone who has a vested interest. Do you think text books are written by people with vested interests, how about newspaper articles? It's very humorous to hear people say that these were primitive societies when the languages they used were much more advanced than ours.

[luvfightgame]

A literal interpretation of the bible? So you cant pick and choose your bits, right?

Personally i couldn't care less what people believe but please explain Noah's ark the 50,000 species of animal, 1 million species of insects....and the DINOSAURS all living together for over 6 months?

luvfightgame is correct, this is a question outside the realms of science.

There is no scientific evidence that can prove one way or the other specific details of a man building an ark.

You dont have to explain it

Noah's ark. million species. Dinosaurs.

Yes or no?

Noah's ark-yes
millions of species-not millions
dinosaurs- yes

It doesn't need a seperate thread

If you want to explain how this could of happened

i'm all ears

Ok,

It took approximately 120 years to build the ark.

It didn't require fish, insects, nor every variety of species. It only required 1 "kind" therefore a single dog breed would suffice. Same for each other "kind".

He took baby dinosaurs.

Oh of course, "kinds" and little baby dinosaurs, it makes sense now...Kent Hovind fan?

To believe that the ark story actually happened, you must really NEED to believe, for some reason



By the way Bilbo

Ica stones - http://skepdic.com/icastones.html

Yup i'm a Hovind fan. I enjoyed watching him thoroughly embarass the "experts" he debated. As far as "need", to believe.... You will come to the same conclusion, you obviously want to believe that everything can happen by accident.

Books have authors, buildings have builders, expecting something more complex than a book to have happened by random chance is crazy. A lot crazier than believing a story about a boat and a bunch of animals. Besides you can't prove it DIDN'T happen, I can prove evolution DIDN'T happen.

I never stated anything I believe in

I guess you should know I'm a pastafarian http://www.venganza.org/

In the name of the Great Noodlyness, Ramen.

Great cop out. I never stated anything I believe in............

I just want to argue and make ridiculous comments, but I will make childish non committed responses like................. I never stated anything........... That's junior high stuff.

[luvfightgame]

I read a story where it mentioned unicorns, pixies, goblins, I even read one that had a flying horse in it. Now I can't prove they didn't exist so therefore they must have been real. Glad that's sorted out.

Great critical thinking skills. You have no problem accepting a story that has things appearing out of nothing, explosions making complex things, and life coming from non living things. Goblins and pixies fits right in.............

[Fenster]

A literal interpretation of the bible? So you cant pick and choose your bits, right?

Personally i couldn't care less what people believe but please explain Noah's ark the 50,000 species of animal, 1 million species of insects....and the DINOSAURS all living together for over 6 months?

luvfightgame is correct, this is a question outside the realms of science.

There is no scientific evidence that can prove one way or the other specific details of a man building an ark.

You dont have to explain it

Noah's ark. million species. Dinosaurs.

Yes or no?

Noah's ark-yes
millions of species-not millions
dinosaurs- yes

It doesn't need a seperate thread

If you want to explain how this could of happened

i'm all ears

Ok,

It took approximately 120 years to build the ark.

It didn't require fish, insects, nor every variety of species. It only required 1 "kind" therefore a single dog breed would suffice. Same for each other "kind".

He took baby dinosaurs.

Oh of course, "kinds" and little baby dinosaurs, it makes sense now...Kent Hovind fan?

To believe that the ark story actually happened, you must really NEED to believe, for some reason



By the way Bilbo

Ica stones - http://skepdic.com/icastones.html

Yup i'm a Hovind fan. I enjoyed watching him thoroughly embarass the "experts" he debated. As far as "need", to believe.... You will come to the same conclusion, you obviously want to believe that everything can happen by accident.

Books have authors, buildings have builders, expecting something more complex than a book to have happened by random chance is crazy. A lot crazier than believing a story about a boat and a bunch of animals. Besides you can't prove it DIDN'T happen, I can prove evolution DIDN'T happen.

I never stated anything I believe in

I guess you should know I'm a pastafarian http://www.venganza.org/

In the name of the Great Noodlyness, Ramen.

Great cop out. I never stated anything I believe in............

I just want to argue and make ridiculous comments, but I will make childish non committed responses like................. I never stated anything........... That's junior high stuff.

ahhh come on dont get upset

I didn't want to argue, just ask a few questions and you've answered them. As i said before I couldn't give a shit what people believe in...there's nothing i can say that'll make you believe anything other than what you already believe, is there?

Although you may feel different if you were touched by His noodly appendage.

[X]

I find it hard to reconcile the childish religious image we have of a kind and just God with the reality of the world around us. I find it simplistic to think that there is a Good one (God) and a Bad one (Satan). Religious mumbo jumbo is responsible for so much pain and suffering now and in the past.

The Churches are pretty evil - 'only I can communicate with your god, and only through me will you get everlasting life (!). Therefore I will set myself up and this will be my job, for which you will pay me money and I will tell you how to live your life. Also, only our way is right and everyone else is wrong and must be either converted to our way of thinking or they are an enemy' Stone Age stuff.

Why do humans always think they are the 'chosen ones'? If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of different species out there. Yet God made us 'in His image'. I don't think so. All cultures have a creation and religious myth, so therefore it is likely that 'aliens' would have as well - until they simply grow out of it of course.

The Bible was written by people with a vested interest in it, they were primitive societies (yes, even Rome). many of the stories are allegorical and people who believe that this could possibly be the literal truth sound misguided to me.

Creationism being told as part of the national curriculum now in some States in the US? (except they have rebranded it 'intelligent design' ........ shocking.

Do you really want to address those questions or are you just giving your opinion? Your statement that many of the stories are allegorical, which ones? And how do you know? By the way EVERYTHING is written by someone who has a vested interest. Do you think text books are written by people with vested interests, how about newspaper articles? It's very humorous to hear people say that these were primitive societies when the languages they used were much more advanced than ours.

I'm giving an opinion - I am not sure whether anyone who posts on this forum, or anyone full stop, is able to definitively address the questions to everyone's satisfaction. I am certainly not!

About the allegorical bit, it's common ground that many Bible stories (particularly the parables) are allegorical. ....... and you're right, I don't know for certain as I was not there as a witness! How can anyone know - was your question allegorical? I think with hindsight my underying point was that the words are not there to be taken literally. The usage of numbers in the Bible, for example, are there to make a point rather than to record that 151,322 Assyrians were slaughtered by the Angel of the Lord

I agree with you that everything is written be people with a vested interest. You sound like you're making a point - I am agreeing with you here.

I am clearly too thick to understand your point about sophisticated languages. Parts of the Old Testament were written by a nomadic society with very limited technological advancement, traditional ruling mechanisms and variable rules of law. These were primitive societies by any definition (I am not saying their languages were crap, nor that they were not our intellectual equals). Any written outputs reflect the state of society prevalent at that time, the Bible messages were useful to them AT THAT TIME (ie don't eat pork, it contains parasites, don't eat shellfish, you may get poisoned, don't wank as we need all the babies we can get etc)

What I posted was purely an opinion, just as what everyone else has posted is essentially, when it comes down to it a question of opinion.... or faith ("The assured expectation of things to come from the evidence of things not yet beheld" That's in Hebrews!!)

[Howlin Mad Missy]

I read a story where it mentioned unicorns, pixies, goblins, I even read one that had a flying horse in it. Now I can't prove they didn't exist so therefore they must have been real. Glad that's sorted out.

Great critical thinking skills. You have no problem accepting a story that has things appearing out of nothing, explosions making complex things, and life coming from non living things. Goblins and pixies fits right in.............

Hang on wasn't that what god did?

Did I ever tell you about my burning bush?

[luvfightgame]

I read a story where it mentioned unicorns, pixies, goblins, I even read one that had a flying horse in it. Now I can't prove they didn't exist so therefore they must have been real. Glad that's sorted out.

Great critical thinking skills. You have no problem accepting a story that has things appearing out of nothing, explosions making complex things, and life coming from non living things. Goblins and pixies fits right in.............

Hang on wasn't that what god did?

Did I ever tell you about my burning bush?

Missy,

You have been presented with loads of data and facts. You somehow think that because you don't accept the Biblical account of creation it makes evolution true. This thread was about creation or evolution. The Biblical account wasn't presented as being the answer, the facts relating to evolution were disputed. Another poster mentioned the creation account of Genesis, I offered to open another thread on theology, and they declined but requested a simple answer. If you stick purely to scientific facts and evidence there is no support for evolution, if you want to debate on philosophical principles that would be a different thread, again one I would enjoy debating. Your philosophical beliefs have nothing to do with the creation or evolution debate. So please stay on topic. If you want to debate the accuracy of the Bible I would gladly give my opinions, but start another thread.

P.S. You should get that burning thing checked out by a doctor, they have medicine for things like that

[luvfightgame]

A literal interpretation of the bible? So you cant pick and choose your bits, right?

Personally i couldn't care less what people believe but please explain Noah's ark the 50,000 species of animal, 1 million species of insects....and the DINOSAURS all living together for over 6 months?

luvfightgame is correct, this is a question outside the realms of science.

There is no scientific evidence that can prove one way or the other specific details of a man building an ark.

You dont have to explain it

Noah's ark. million species. Dinosaurs.

Yes or no?

Noah's ark-yes
millions of species-not millions
dinosaurs- yes

It doesn't need a seperate thread

If you want to explain how this could of happened

i'm all ears

Ok,

It took approximately 120 years to build the ark.

It didn't require fish, insects, nor every variety of species. It only required 1 "kind" therefore a single dog breed would suffice. Same for each other "kind".

He took baby dinosaurs.

Oh of course, "kinds" and little baby dinosaurs, it makes sense now...Kent Hovind fan?

To believe that the ark story actually happened, you must really NEED to believe, for some reason



By the way Bilbo

Ica stones - http://skepdic.com/icastones.html

Yup i'm a Hovind fan. I enjoyed watching him thoroughly embarass the "experts" he debated. As far as "need", to believe.... You will come to the same conclusion, you obviously want to believe that everything can happen by accident.

Books have authors, buildings have builders, expecting something more complex than a book to have happened by random chance is crazy. A lot crazier than believing a story about a boat and a bunch of animals. Besides you can't prove it DIDN'T happen, I can prove evolution DIDN'T happen.

I never stated anything I believe in

I guess you should know I'm a pastafarian http://www.venganza.org/

In the name of the Great Noodlyness, Ramen.

Great cop out. I never stated anything I believe in............

I just want to argue and make ridiculous comments, but I will make childish non committed responses like................. I never stated anything........... That's junior high stuff.

ahhh come on dont get upset

I didn't want to argue, just ask a few questions and you've answered them. As i said before I couldn't give a S*** what people believe in...there's nothing i can say that'll make you believe anything other than what you already believe, is there?

Although you may feel different if you were touched by His noodly appendage.

I'm not upset, of course you give a shit what people believe. It is actually the most important thing in the world. It completely determines how a person thinks, behaves, etc.... The entire economy operates on faith, ever hear of consumer confidence, how does that change the value of things? And how do they know when it goes up or down? A fighter fights better when they believe they will win, belief is everything and discussing beliefs should never be avoided.

As far as you swaying my beliefs, I hope you weren't trying cause you've offered nothing by cynical comments, those will never sway me. If you make a point and can back it up, that would sway me.

[luvfightgame]

I find it hard to reconcile the childish religious image we have of a kind and just God with the reality of the world around us. I find it simplistic to think that there is a Good one (God) and a Bad one (Satan). Religious mumbo jumbo is responsible for so much pain and suffering now and in the past.

The Churches are pretty evil - 'only I can communicate with your god, and only through me will you get everlasting life (!). Therefore I will set myself up and this will be my job, for which you will pay me money and I will tell you how to live your life. Also, only our way is right and everyone else is wrong and must be either converted to our way of thinking or they are an enemy' Stone Age stuff.

Why do humans always think they are the 'chosen ones'? If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of different species out there. Yet God made us 'in His image'. I don't think so. All cultures have a creation and religious myth, so therefore it is likely that 'aliens' would have as well - until they simply grow out of it of course.

The Bible was written by people with a vested interest in it, they were primitive societies (yes, even Rome). many of the stories are allegorical and people who believe that this could possibly be the literal truth sound misguided to me.

Creationism being told as part of the national curriculum now in some States in the US? (except they have rebranded it 'intelligent design' ........ shocking.

Do you really want to address those questions or are you just giving your opinion? Your statement that many of the stories are allegorical, which ones? And how do you know? By the way EVERYTHING is written by someone who has a vested interest. Do you think text books are written by people with vested interests, how about newspaper articles? It's very humorous to hear people say that these were primitive societies when the languages they used were much more advanced than ours.

I'm giving an opinion - I am not sure whether anyone who posts on this forum, or anyone full stop, is able to definitively address the questions to everyone's satisfaction. I am certainly not!

About the allegorical bit, it's common ground that many Bible stories (particularly the parables) are allegorical. ....... and you're right, I don't know for certain as I was not there as a witness! How can anyone know - was your question allegorical? I think with hindsight my underying point was that the words are not there to be taken literally. The usage of numbers in the Bible, for example, are there to make a point rather than to record that 151,322 Assyrians were slaughtered by the Angel of the Lord

I agree with you that everything is written be people with a vested interest. You sound like you're making a point - I am agreeing with you here.

I am clearly too thick to understand your point about sophisticated languages. Parts of the Old Testament were written by a nomadic society with very limited technological advancement, traditional ruling mechanisms and variable rules of law. These were primitive societies by any definition (I am not saying their languages were crap, nor that they were not our intellectual equals). Any written outputs reflect the state of society prevalent at that time, the Bible messages were useful to them AT THAT TIME (ie don't eat pork, it contains parasites, don't eat shellfish, you may get poisoned, don't wank as we need all the babies we can get etc)

What I posted was purely an opinion, just as what everyone else has posted is essentially, when it comes down to it a question of opinion.... or faith ("The assured expectation of things to come from the evidence of things not yet beheld" That's in Hebrews!!)

You're definitely not thick, just sarcastic in your comments. I could address the questions you posed, doubtful they will be to everyones satisfaction, but I can address them reasonably and with viable solutions to the problems. Again, I am certain not everyone would agree. As far as the allegorical, I beleive that it is very clear which are allegorical and which are to be taken literal. Of course it is a different topic, but again one I wouldn't mind debating. I think it requires it's own thread, and I won't open it, that way I won't be accused of "forcing my opinion on other people".

The statement about primitive societies is still an opinion. They accomplished some amazing feats for being technilogically limited, the pyramids, stonehenge, etc... The wonders of the world that are still visited today, and amazingly are still standing. Are you saying that the current legal system is more effective? Are you aware that over 2000 laws are passed per year? Do you really believe the current political system of rule is effective? Has it grown better, or gotten more corrupt? I think if you weight things on the same scale you will be very suprised....

[TyBuff]

I read a story where it mentioned unicorns, pixies, goblins, I even read one that had a flying horse in it. Now I can't prove they didn't exist so therefore they must have been real. Glad that's sorted out.

Great critical thinking skills. You have no problem accepting a story that has things appearing out of nothing, explosions making complex things, and life coming from non living things. Goblins and pixies fits right in.............

Hang on wasn't that what god did?

Did I ever tell you about my burning bush?

Missy I am no expert but if you have a burning bush I would see a doctor about that. They have medicines for stuff like that.

[X]

You're definitely not thick, just sarcastic in your comments. I could address the questions you posed, doubtful they will be to everyones satisfaction, but I can address them reasonably and with viable solutions to the problems. Again, I am certain not everyone would agree. As far as the allegorical, I beleive that it is very clear which are allegorical and which are to be taken literal. Of course it is a different topic, but again one I wouldn't mind debating. I think it requires it's own thread, and I won't open it, that way I won't be accused of "forcing my opinion on other people".

The statement about primitive societies is still an opinion. They accomplished some amazing feats for being technilogically limited, the pyramids, stonehenge, etc... The wonders of the world that are still visited today, and amazingly are still standing. Are you saying that the current legal system is more effective? Are you aware that over 2000 laws are passed per year? Do you really believe the current political system of rule is effective? Has it grown better, or gotten more corrupt? I think if you weight things on the same scale you will be very suprised....

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, this is an interesting conversation. So sorry if it comes over like that. The trouble with email and posting on forums is that you can't put inflexions and things into your words so it's easy to be taken the wrong way (and also to take things the wrong way). We will all have our beliefs about literal truths in the Bible, or not. You will have what you think are good answers to the questions I raised, and you will have your own view of what is literal or allegorical. I doubt anything i say will change your views, and I doubt whether anything you say will change mine. (That's why 'belief with the exclusion of all other possibilities' has caused so many wars!!!! To paraphrase George W. "You're either with me or against me" with religion, unfortunately.

I don't think I made my point about primitive society well: I don't think people were more stupid then, the things they did and the feats of engineering and invention are on a par with anything we do (in terms of incremental advance), I agree that laws today are not necessarily better (but would argue that there are less miscarriages of justice than in Solomon's time, say), I would agree that we are probably just as violent and bloodthirsty etc etc ........... but, more people are better educated today then they were in ancient times, we understand physics and sciences better (most people do not believe that a solar eclipse needs to be assuaged by blood sacrifice to make the sun come back), we have a more open and tolerant outlook. Most laws are enacted with at least a semblance of underlying justice (as opposed to burning someone because the 'test' said they were a witch). As a society, where we fundamentally differ from them is in access to information. Most westerners at least are less in thrall to 'holy men' because they can check out at least some facts and then try and make their mind up on limited evidence. That's what I mean by them being in a more prmitive society.

It would be interesting to come back in another 3000 years and see which of our fundamentally held modern 'truths' have been disproved or superceded in the intervening period. Perhaps the more educated humans of the future would not have fallen victim to the Audley Harrison myth?

[VictorCharlie]

luvfightgame...obviously we are discussing old testament here, but I recently read a book called "Misquoting Jesus". The author is a devout christian and has studied at some of the most esteemed religious institutions in the world. The book basically shows how many inaccuracies and changes the new testament has endured over the centuries. Anyway its a bit dry, but a good read. My point is that if the NEW testament is so flawed what does that say about the possibilities of the Old?

[TyBuff]

luvfightgame...obviously we are discussing old testament here, but I recently read a book called "Misquoting Jesus". The author is a devout christian and has studied at some of the most esteemed religious institutions in the world. The book basically shows how many inaccuracies and changes the new testament has endured over the centuries. Anyway its a bit dry, but a good read. My point is that if the NEW testament is so flawed what does that say about the possibilities of the Old?

For as many translations as the bible has undergone there is no way that it doesnt have any inaccuracies or flaws. Translations from one language to another there will always be differences on how things are said or read.