See I enjoy debating @TitoFan because if I do him the courtesy of accepting the premise of HIS points, he returns the favor in kind and we end up actually having a DEBATE....it would be nice if somebody (cough, cough) took notes on that. Also thank you TitoFan for joining me in such a debate, we haven't always seen eye to eye but we've learned from each other and we've had some good solid friendly debates and I am pleased to continue this.


Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan
You make some good points, Lyle..... but this isn't one of them. You're saying it's not "just jobs", not "just money", not "getting away from war", because people would've moved long ago since "things haven't changed much in the Middle East." So is it to flee to a "better culture" then? Has THAT changed? If anything, jobs, money, and war are far more fluid things than culture in a society.... and would tend to favor my point that people of other cultures probably see their own as better.
Thank you, you make some solid points as well. My point in saying "there's massive migration from Islamic nations West" is that those people wouldn't move to somewhere they think they'd be worse off. People are migrating for a reason, and if the West is offering better lives for those people why is that the case? Why indeed is that the case when SOME of the countries these guys (and it's pretty much all MEN too which is telling) are fleeing are blessed with brilliant natural resources and SHOULD be providing great opportunities as far as work and money goes, but they aren't for some reason. Other places are just shitholes, Somalia is a shithole and people leave there because it's a shithole.....but when they want to hold on tight to the ways of Somalia in terms of religious practices etc that's not good...there's no place for FGM in America for example, there's no place for Sharia in America, the laws of America are the laws of the land, not Sharia.

They can see their own cultures as better I am sure they do, but if one is to look objectively, just break down the pros and cons of each culture you'll see the side which errs on the side of liberty, individual rights, is the Western culture and maybe it's just me, but I think erring on that side is best, perhaps I'm biased....maybe you want to win me over to the other side if so make the case of why the Islamic culture of whatever nation is better than the United States, I'm willing to read about it if nothing else.

Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan
My "premise" ISN'T that it's "SUCH a problem", Lyle. My premise is that in our culture, those groups are tolerated and given the right to exist freely. The only intervention is when a crime is committed.... sort of a "close the barn door after the horse is gone" type of approach. Don't look at it from your biased point of view, which is understandable given that you've lived all your life in this culture. Look at it the way maybe another culture would look at it. Freedom-shmeedom. These groups preach hate, divisiveness, and superiority of one group over others. They scheme, plot, and thanks to the famous 2nd Amendment (another point where other cultures might take exception).... are ever ready to take matters into their own hands.
"those groups are tolerated"....Are they? Where are they tolerated? It's the law they are allowed to freely express themselves soooo yeah there's that but given that I'm also free to express MY views as are others and those typically drown out the "Neo-Nazis" which are apparently a HUGE problem these days (not because you brought them up, but because every fucking lefty brings them up like they're on every God damned street corner now'a'days).

Another shot at the 2nd Amendment from you .....yeah I'm sure a culture that allows for and ACCEPTS beating women, tossing gays off of rooftops, women's testimony being worth half a man's, a woman needing 4 eye witnesses willing to testify that she was raped, and that allows and ACCEPTS killing (anyone even other Muslims) in the name of Allah would have quite the problem with people being allowed to defend themselves.


Quote Originally Posted by TitoFan
Here's where I'll surprise you and agree you've got a good point. (My willingness to see others' points of view is astounding, I know). I was taken aback by that, and looked it up (not that I don't trust you ). Yeah..... that's a major arguing point against that particular culture, since this is basically government-endorsed. All I'll say is that Palestine-Israeli hate is up there in stratospheric levels somewhere.
AH HA! I gotcha with one! BOOYAH!

I see nothing wrong or contradictory about my statement. I specifically said I compare Islamic extremists to extremists in other cultures, and find the Islamic extremists a million times worse. I make that comparison based on specific actions, which get splashed across the headlines. The closest example to that in Western civilization would be McVeigh, who brought down a whole building based on his hate.

But this is different than comparing cultures themselves. Every culture has decent, upstanding citizens, who truly believe their beliefs and customs are the right way to live. I still hesitate to use the word "better" to compare cultures. The day I live in each culture for a year or so, and experience what they experience..... THEN.... maybe I'd feel qualified to use that word. Till then I'll just say "different."
Yeah there's Timothy McVeigh and hell throw in Eric Robert Rudolph and that nut who flew a plane into the IRS building....now weigh those guys against the Jihadis: 9/11, 7/7 bombings, Bataclan, Nice truck attack, Pulse Nightclub, the Manchester bombing, Mumbai attack....here's a list of the last 30 days where there have been 167 Islamic Extremist terrorist attacks in 24 countries which killed 1038 people and injured 1050 https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/a...aspx?Yr=Last30

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said (and I believe that you personally understand this from me better than others) that America is perfect or American culture is perfect...I'm saying more "In order to form a more perfect Union", the country was built with eyes on the future, adapting, adjusting, honing itself (with the help of the citizenry) to work towards perfection knowing it's unachievable but hoping to reach a state of excellence where everyone is greeted on and acknowledged as being on the same plane of existence where we can agree or disagree and still live together peacefully.....and those ideals, the fact that we're even attempting to go that route, that is where I say the "better" happens....Shia and Sunni, they don't want to live together and they share the same religion, they want to massacre each other and leave only 1....we're not of that mindset although looking at our armed forces and the military strength we have we could EASILY do that and enforce it on the entire world. We choose not to.....America could have chosen to be an empire, we chose not to be, it is important that this came from our collective free will. But maybe I'm off target here, I think it's important, but maybe to others it isn't.